[NL2-NL10] JTo against a callbox

    • ShadowOfLight1337
      ShadowOfLight1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2009 Posts: 239
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $2,65
      BB:
      $5,45

      0,05/0,1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J:spade: , T:heart:
      7 folds, Hero calls $0,05, BB checks.

      Flop: ($0,20) K:spade: , 3:heart: , Q:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0,30, BB calls $0,30.

      Turn: ($0,80) 3:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets $0,10, Hero calls $0,10.

      River: ($1,00) A:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0,30, BB raises to $4,95 (All-In), Hero calls $1,85 (All-In), BB gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $5,30


      I myself believe that I played pretty bad here. Since he went all in as soon as the 3rd heart came, but the way that he's been playing, I "wanted" to put him on something like 2 pair or aces. Laying down a straight is a hard thing to do. Also, I guess my bet on the flop was not good.

      Any thoughts?
  • 11 replies
    • JuiceQuadre
      JuiceQuadre
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 2,688
      I would not complete SB = no problem to solve ^^
    • ShadowOfLight1337
      ShadowOfLight1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2009 Posts: 239
      Originally posted by JuiceQuadre
      I would not complete SB = no problem to solve ^^
      If you look at his stats, he has not made a single raise, so my limp was in no danger of being raised.
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      Shortstacks do not open-complete :P
    • Termi8r
      Termi8r
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 408
      Hi ShadowOfLight1337,

      I think open completing with J10 is a dangerous move. You don't often don't stand to win much against only one opponent and risk losing your stack with a medium strength hand, like a top pair with weak kicker. You are also out of position after the flop.

      If your opponent is very tight you could think of stealing the blinds first in. This is however not needed at NL10 SSS because there are so many other profitable spots to put your money in good and people are calling too loose.

      If there were many limpers (>3) in front I would maybe think of completing with suited connecters, hoping to flop the a monster on the flop. If I get a weak draw I just fold because you rarely get the right odds for a call.

      Good luck!
      Termi8r
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Originally posted by wuusaa
      Shortstacks do not open-complete :P
      Quoted for the truth.

      Hello ShadowOfLight1337,

      In this hand folding preflop would be correct. Even though BB never raises, the playability of JTo OOP without initiative is very bad as you probably noticed yourself in this hand. ;)

      Against calling stations or loose-passive opponents it's best to just play simple tight-aggressive poker and bet strong hands for value.

      You could consider raising JTo from BU or CO, because in that case you would have initiative and position and could easily outplay your opponent postflop.

      Now, as played, I would bet pot on the flop, I don't think there's any reason to overbet. After you got called on the flop I would just play my draw passively from that point on according to outs and odds. So, turn is well played. On the river I would bet bigger against such opponent because he's able to call a lot of bad hands here, so I would bet 0.8-1$ and after the raise I would never fold nutstraight on NL10.

      If you might have any additional questions feel free to click "Advise the judge to have another look".

      Regards!
      burek2000
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Originally posted by wuusaa
      Shortstacks do not open-complete :P

      However, it's funny that when I do with good odds I am making a tidy profit out of it. I think this is a flaw in the strategy myself. As soon as I added a couple of cold calls to my arsenal (JJ and AK against tight players) my profits are rising nicely, before that break even only. AK coinflips are not a good way to play AT ALL in cash games FR no matter what happens.

      Plus, since I have stopped shoving my AK, that hand has moved up 2 places on my most profitable hands just behind the big 3.

      Maybe the strategy is correct, and in a run of another 30k hands i'll be wrong, but I don't think so.

      Oh yeah, but defo fold preflop against pretty much all opponents unless they have an extremely high fold to steal stat (like 95%+).
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Originally posted by MrMardyBum
      Originally posted by wuusaa
      Shortstacks do not open-complete :P

      However, it's funny that when I do with good odds I am making a tidy profit out of it. I think this is a flaw in the strategy myself. As soon as I added a couple of cold calls to my arsenal (JJ and AK against tight players) my profits are rising nicely, before that break even only. AK coinflips are not a good way to play AT ALL in cash games FR no matter what happens.

      Completing SB or limping from LP is ok IF there are other limpers in front of you thus improving your pot and implied odds. On the other hand, opencompleting or openlimping should be avoided at all costs.

      As for the cold calling with AK, you're losing value. With short stack you don't have good implied odds when you hit and you will hit only 1/3 of the cases, meaning you will have to give up the hand to c-bet in 2/3 of the cases, so it's best to just put your money in preflop with big equity advantage against opponent's range. Besides, I agree flipping with AKo isn't good, but you have to consider opponents whole raising range, not just PPs against which you are flipping, so AK is way ahead or flipping against his range, therefore very profitable for you.

      Oh yeah, but defo fold preflop against pretty much all opponents unless they have an extremely high fold to steal stat (like 95%+).


      If we raise 3BB when we steal from SB, we only need BB to fold to our steal in 75%+ in order to be profitable.

      But we definitely have to fold against 62/0 guys with fold2steal 0%. :)
    • mishuq
      mishuq
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 436
      Originally posted by burek2000

      Completing SB or limping from LP is ok IF there are other limpers in front of you thus improving your pot and implied odds.
      + 1
      and on NL50 +
      and never open completing
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      So, you are facing a 8/8 player and he raises from MP1 to 4BB's and you are sat with AK in the SB, Button calls (20/15 player)and you would shove?
      I'd prefer to call and lose 4 BB's and the chance to triple up if I hit, than push straight away.




      ....?

      We hit 1/3 times you say.... So 4BB's (from out 20BB starting stack) leaves us with 16BB's we fold this twice. but hit once...? Correct?

      So we lose 8BB's on average, if we double up only (one folds), we gain on the 3rd time 24BB's? So plus 16BB's.

      Same situation, We reaise allin.... We lose 40BB's on average, and on the 3rd time we win 24BB's. -16BB's...?


      Also, HU you say we have BIG equity advantage... 57% against a VPIP of 8, not exactly big. But granted is + and you are right.

      Explain please your take on this?


      P.S... Noted on the BB steal, cheers :P


      EDIT forgot to take off the our owm BB's lol
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Retract on the complete, didn't notice was open-complete, apologies. Was tired.
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      With the explanation I will refer to the example you provided.

      So, we have 8/8 openraiser, 20/15 coldcaller and we hold AK in the SB. With this info I will presume BU as dead money, because he will almost never have a hand to call our all-in and to keep the math simple I will consider we have no fold equity from 8/8 player...

      AK against 8% handrange has 56.2 equity according to equilator...

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 43,797% 37,708% 12,179% 50,113% 88+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo
      Player 2: 56,203% 50,113% 12,179% 37,708% AKs, AKo

      So, if we push we make profit of...

      24BB*0.95*0.562 - 20BB*0.438 = +4.05BB

      pot we can win * rake * chances of winning - investment * chances opponent wins = profit

      So, that's our net profit in the long term if we push.

      If we call on the other hand, we hit the flop in only 1/3 of the cases and we are in a 3-way pot, this means, opponents will be less likely to invest any more money in the pot if they didn't hit, so you will find your self in a very marginal situation, and don't forget even when you hit you will still lose your entire stack to AA and KK most of the time because they would hit a set. Another bad thing would be that you would play OOP without initiative. I admit, I don't know how to calculate the expected value if we call here, because there would be too many variables, but I can say it would be pretty marginal situation and hard to play.

      I hope this gives you some picture of why pushing is best move, however I'm leaving this thread open for other judges...

      P.S.: It's always good to discuss, it makes you understand the background better. :)