[NL2-NL10] NL10 FR: TJ on a steal

    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      BU(Hero):
      $12.46
      SB:
      $11.42
      BB:
      $1.76
      UTG2:
      $1.85
      MP1:
      $1.70
      MP2:
      $8.99
      MP3:
      $10.66
      CO:
      $11.74

      Preflop: Hero is BU with J, T.
      5 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, SB raises to $1.2, BB folds, Hero calls $0.80.

      Flop: ($2.50) 6, 4, T (2 players)
      SB bets $1.70, Hero calls $1.70.

      Turn: ($5.90) J (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50.

      River: ($12.90) 7 (2 players)
      SB bets $5.02(All-In), Hero folds, SB gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $12.90.


      villain looks like an OK player evern though I had only 40 hands on the guy.
      He was playing 17/14/2 at that time.
      I put him on QQ++ with a diamond / AdJx / AQ/AK (1 diamond)

      Preflop: I like playing TJ against him IP.

      Flop: not sure my top pair is the best hand, I rather go for pot control here and just call.

      Turn: great card giving me top two, According to the range of hands that I gave him I'm ahead now.
      There is a FD out there. if he is drawing I want him to pay for his draw. I also want to get value from my hand.

      River: Very bad card. with no diamonds I choose to fold.
  • 12 replies
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      On turn bet $5+ or shove directly, you are ahead and its the best time to get the money in.

      His river bet in some cases is a bluff to see if you have a diamond. I dont think I can fold 2pair with those odds.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by TheBrood
      His river bet in some cases is a bluff to see if you have a diamond. I dont think I can fold 2pair with those odds.
      You think that the river is a bluff? It really didn't look like a bluff. I think that he called the turn with Qd+ and got his flash but maybe I'm worng.
      About the odds I'm not sure. I'm getting 1:3.6, There is only one card for a flash.
      I will want to hear the judges opinion.
      Thanks for you comment.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by TheBrood
      On turn bet $5+ or shove directly, you are ahead and its the best time to get the money in.

      His river bet in some cases is a bluff to see if you have a diamond. I dont think I can fold 2pair with those odds.
      hey river is most definatly not a bluff.... you cannot bluff with an all-in like that which does not even come anywhere near pot size.

      As played:
      I'd prefer raising the flop and folding if villain shoves.
      This is because he 3-bet pre-flop. So he has either one of the two: overpair or A with very good kicker that missed the flop. At the same time he will put you on either those two type of hands in most cases. So if you raise here you re-present the overpair or a made hand and villain will fold any kind of Ax type of hands.

      If you do decide to just call:
      Turn bet must be much higher. The chance of him having a flush are not that high because of his flop line.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by Dragar

      As played:
      I'd prefer raising the flop and folding if villain shoves.
      This is because he 3-bet pre-flop. So he has either one of the two: overpair or A with very good kicker that missed the flop. At the same time he will put you on either those two type of hands in most cases. So if you raise here you re-present the overpair or a made hand and villain will fold any kind of Ax type of hands.
      Well, actually he represented the overpair by 3betting and then betting 2/3 of the pot on the flop. Usually an overpair will shove here if I'm raising him so I prefer just calling IP.


      Originally posted by Dragar
      If you do decide to just call:
      Turn bet must be much higher. The chance of him having a flush are not that high because of his flop line.
      I agree about my turn bet size, it should have been something like 4.5$.
      About the flash, I don't think he had the flash on the turn, I think he got it in the river.
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      On river you have to call $5.02 in order to win $22.94; 5.02/22.94=21.88

      You have 21.88% pot odds, so if you catch him bluffing once in 4 times, You make a profit. If you catch him bluffing once in 5 times you only lose 1.88% of the 22.94(I think) in the long run.

      His reasoning on river might be: "I can't fold my QQ/KK/AA on the river so I will shove first and he will fold if he doesnt have a diamond"

      Of course, he prob has a diamond, but not always.
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      I agree w/ Dragar here. By not giving up the steal attempt to the resteal 3bet you commit to continuing on suitable flops, so if you wont raise villain's cbet IP with JT on a T high flop you should have folded preflop.

      Raise-fold on the flop is our line here. Villains with over-air might make a stupid-loose call but will mostly fold. Villains with OP will call or raise again, smart villains with weak FD (no gutshot / no overcards) will fold because our raise will be big enough to make 9 outs not enough (raising to about $5).

      If the size of the betting here is intimidating for you, fold to the re-steal PF. 3bet pots are always going to get ugly and force you to make expensive decisions with marginal (TPGK) hands. The more marginal the hands you play into a 3bet hand the harder the marginal decisions will be, such as having to make a huge raise with JT on a T high flop.

      If we had played raise-fold and the villain had called the flop, the J :diamond: is fairly ugly and gives us another aweful decision. Flush got there, OP possibly picked up a backdoor redraw, but we just beat any OP. Since we are calling if the villain shoves and since villain will probably call with more worse hands (AA-QQ, AJ, AT) than better hands (flush, TT), and since we cant make a reasonable bet here and still have a reasonable bet left for the river, shove it on that turn.

      Edit - re pot control here:

      I think its very hard and very rare to see a SD in a 3bet pot without stacking off. It really only happens in situations where both players have a hand that is on the lower fringe of 3betting / calling 3bet range and confront a scary flop - eg QQ vs JJ on AKrag flop. Sometimes that might check down to a showdown with two relatively passive players.

      So if you make a 3bet or call a 3bet and want to see a SD, you really have to be prepared to part with your stack for doing so.

      Certainly we dont have to call and automatically shove afterwards. A medium PP you could have played this way, eg 77-88-99, and easily folded. Since we have a 1/8 chance to hit a rarely-beaten monster we can play call-fold when we miss.

      Now with JTo we have no such high chance to flop the safely-best hand. Our chance to flop 2p, trips or a straight is quite low compared to the chance a PP will set up, so we *must* continue with TP (sometimes even MP in blind wars vs aggressive blind defenders), and continuing with TP to a SD on a 3bet pot is going to cost you a stack most of the time.

      The best way to control our losses here vs OP while making sure we dont often get forced to fold the best hand would be to raise the flop in a raise-fold line. OP should raise and we can fold, over air should fold. If we call 3 streets of value bets from OP, assuming blank turn / river, we are likely to be all in on the river anyway and our just-call way ahead-way behind line will have been wasted effort. Even worse by the time we get to the river in that situation the pot will be so large we will have a hard time folding even though we know we lost -

      Turn pot $5.90, standard bet ~$5
      River pot $15.90, remaining stacks only $3-4. Are we going to fold for $4 at a $16 pot with TPTK? :(

      Perhaps we can call flop and fold to the second barrel (assuming turn is a blank)? Thats the only other reasonable pot-control line we have. If that was your intention fair enough :) I prefer a more aggressive line as sometimes if we play call flop, fold turn we are folding to the second barrel with the best hand.
    • Mstlc
      Mstlc
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 4,676
      Originally posted by Jaissica
      I agree w/ Dragar here. By not giving up the steal attempt to the resteal 3bet you commit to continuing on suitable flops, so if you wont raise villain's cbet IP with JT on a T high flop you should have folded preflop.
      +1

      I very much dislike how you played this hand. The steal with JTo... pfff I dunno, but ok if you like to play AG I guess. But, if you want to steal with such a wide range, you should be able to lay down your hand on this kind of 3bets. You do have position, yes... but JTo is hardly a monster. Fold your hand pre-flop, your steal failed, don't donk away another $5 before realising you're beat.

      If you do want to play this hand regardless, then at least raise the flop & represent a good hand. You flopped top pair jack kicker, what were you hoping for, flopping a straight?
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      I'm waiting to hear the judges opinion. (I tend to agree with you guys)
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      ^^
    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      JT is not really a steal because it have not bad playability imo.

      i would reraise turn because there are so many cards i dont wanna see on the river. villain will rarely call you with worse but i think in much more cases u will take it down on the turn. even if called you are not in so bad shape before the river card
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Platinum
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,095
      Fold pre-flop to the bet, don't push with no diamonds.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello,

      Preflop: Just fold it here, don't like to play with such hand, JTo just sucks, a way to often dominated.

      As played
      Flop: Fine, I don't like raising here because we don't want to go broke with our JT hand, he could easily have an overpair here.
      Turn: You could bet a bit more, ~$5.
      River: Fine.

      Best regards,
      Rensu