How is the order of hands decided?

    • GunFlavoured
      GunFlavoured
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      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 626
      Hi,

      Just out of curiosity, how are the order of hands decided. Ie why is AK better than 44 but when they're heads up 44 is ahead. Not saying 44 is a better starting hand I just want to know how they calculate it.
  • 13 replies
    • SheepMoose
      SheepMoose
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      Joined: 15.01.2009 Posts: 854
      44 is a better starting hand because pre-flop all pocket pairs beat all suited connecters. It's pretty close to a coin flip with pocket 4's, but providing the Villian (or hero) doesn't catch an ace or king, or make a straight, pocket 4's are good.

      Pocket 2's versus a suited AK is a coin flip though.
    • GunFlavoured
      GunFlavoured
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      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 626
      I get that but when you look at something such as the equilator program the order is AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 AKs 77 AQs AJs AKo etc. When you pick say 77 vs AKs, 77 is the favourite but lower in the order. Is there something I am completely missing?
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
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      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      AK has a very good chance to beat every hand except KK and AA.

      77 gets dominated vs 88+

      hope this helps...
    • PokerSteve999
      PokerSteve999
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      Joined: 09.04.2009 Posts: 5
      Oops
    • GunFlavoured
      GunFlavoured
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      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 626
      Thanks for the replies guys but I still don't completely understand. Another example is AQs is ranked higher than AKo but heads up AKo is a 70% favourite. I'm sure there is a simple explanation for this.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hi GunFlavoured

      You're forgetting you aren't comparing AQs v AKo, you're comparing AQs v hand ranges of all opponents yet to act v AKo v hand ranges of all opponents yet to act.

      Some hands have better playability than others.

      IE your first example yes, 44 v AK, 44 is the better hand, but if you enter a pot with 44 and the flop is 78Q, where do you stand if villian is betting at you and all you have is a hand range?

      Hence, pre flop AK is valued higher as an opening hand than 44.

      Hope this helps.

      Ofc if I'm talking rubbish no doubt I'll be corrected, but this is (I guess) the basic idea.
    • GunFlavoured
      GunFlavoured
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      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 626
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Hi GunFlavoured

      You're forgetting you aren't comparing AQs v AKo, you're comparing AQs v hand ranges of all opponents yet to act v AKo v hand ranges of all opponents yet to act.

      Some hands have better playability than others.

      IE your first example yes, 44 v AK, 44 is the better hand, but if you enter a pot with 44 and the flop is 78Q, where do you stand if villian is betting at you and all you have is a hand range?

      Hence, pre flop AK is valued higher as an opening hand than 44.

      Hope this helps.

      Ofc if I'm talking rubbish no doubt I'll be corrected, but this is (I guess) the basic idea.
      Thanks,

      I had a look at it and you're right, the order is deterined by the chance of that hand holding up vs any random hand. Ie AQs vs random is 66.3% chance to win while AKo vs random is 65.5% chance to win, etc.
    • AussieIan
      AussieIan
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      Joined: 10.12.2007 Posts: 366
      The mian thing when comparing all hands, AK is only a big dog against AA and KK, flip or ahead of all other hands. Something like 44 is a flip against 2 overcards, and a big dog againts higher pockets. That's why some high connectors are rated higher than low/mid pockets, is about how they go against every poosible hand out there, rather than an individual hand.
    • sliggy
      sliggy
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      Joined: 18.10.2008 Posts: 196
      well pocket 4s seldom improve, where AK improves 1/3rd of the time. 4s can be bluffed out of a pot when they dont improve, whereas when AK improves it becomes the nuts. 4s improving is the nuts too, but AK improves much more often.

      lol @ random incoherent thought of mine.
    • sliggy
      sliggy
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      Joined: 18.10.2008 Posts: 196
      actually pretty sure everyone else nailed this far more accurately. just ignore my post.
    • TFMonty
      TFMonty
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      Joined: 17.04.2008 Posts: 126
      AK is also very overated by noobs........


      you mention 4s in your eg..........ok compare 22 to 77 vs ak all will be about same %

      now compare 22 to 77 vs say 910 and see what the % say


      same sit pocket pair vs connected overcards dif is AK if you hit you are likely not to be up against a bigger pair... so rangewise its better.....

      but dont get married to it post flop
    • SheepMoose
      SheepMoose
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      Joined: 15.01.2009 Posts: 854
      Originally posted by TFMonty
      AK is also very overated by noobs........


      you mention 4s in your eg..........ok compare 22 to 77 vs ak all will be about same %

      now compare 22 to 77 vs say 910 and see what the % say


      same sit pocket pair vs connected overcards dif is AK if you hit you are likely not to be up against a bigger pair... so rangewise its better.....

      but dont get married to it post flop
      This is the problem most people make. They fall in love with their cards and push all in pre-flop, before running into aces.

      AK is slightly overrated in my opinion.
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
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      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by SheepMoose
      Originally posted by TFMonty
      AK is also very overated by noobs........


      you mention 4s in your eg..........ok compare 22 to 77 vs ak all will be about same %

      now compare 22 to 77 vs say 910 and see what the % say


      same sit pocket pair vs connected overcards dif is AK if you hit you are likely not to be up against a bigger pair... so rangewise its better.....

      but dont get married to it post flop
      This is the problem most people make. They fall in love with their cards and push all in pre-flop, before running into aces.

      AK is slightly overrated in my opinion.
      AK is a difficult hand to play =)