Rank Upgrades for Long-Time, Low-Frequency players

    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Hi all,

      I'm really enjoying my experience with PokerStrategy and applying the VERY VALUABLE lessons learned here in both my online and home-game play.

      Unfortunately, I'm neither a high-stakes nor high-frequency player - online I play mostly $1+.25 SnG's, and average between 5-10 games a week.

      This seems a comfortable balance for my work/family/leisure time and I'm not looking to increase my time at the tables. I am hungry to learn more about this game though. The problem is that playing at these stakes and frequencies I will never earn enough strategy points in the 4 week period to advance to the Silver rank and unlock those strategies. (I realize that as my bankroll builds I could progress to higher buy-ins and thus higher rakes, and thus earn strategy points quicker, but at my frequency of play this is still going to take a very, very long time - i.e. years.)

      I was wondering what people think about setting certain Lifetime Strategy Point levels to reward long-time players who might not be able to provide the high cash influx to PS over short periods of time (i.e. 4-weeks), but over the long haul are still valuable contributors to the financial success of PS.

      For instance at 1000 lifetime strategy points we earn the Elephant License, what if at another value we earned silver rank (or at least access to silver rank strategy material)..., and at another higher value - access to gold, etc...

      A Possible Scale
      400 Lifetime Strategy Points = Silver Rank
      1000 Lifetime Strategy Points = Elephant License
      1500 Lifetime Strategy Points = Gold Rank
      3750 Lifetime Strategy Points = Platinum Rank

      A Possible Rationale
      For example, it seems to me that for the Elephant License (1000 Lifetime Strategy points) a player has to generate between $300 and $500 of rake (depending on poker room). So 1000 Strategy points equates to about roughly $400 of rake generated.

      To go from Bronze to Silver requires between 100 and 799 Strategy Points over a 4-week period (or between roughly $40 to $320 of rake generated)... PS's hope is that this level of rake generation is sustained, which for my example will never occur. So we could determine a reasonable equivalent Lifetime Requirement - I would suggest half of the maximum 4-week requirement - in this case 400 points.

      For somebody like me, it'll still take 2 years to obtain this many points, but in the meantime I've still generated hundreds of dollars of rake for PS and at least I'll know that someday I'll be able to access new strategies to employ.

      I don't want something for nothing, I really do believe that the material PS has to offer is valuable. It would be up to PS to decide what they thought was a fair lifetime contribution to unlock this material with their members. The numbers I provided are just a starting point for the discussion.

      What do you think?
  • 19 replies
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      Im not sure about aggregate based access to the top end content, but definantly aggegrate based access to Silver should be considered.

      The silver content is really what takes a break even micro grinder and turns them into a winner ready to escalate up limits. It would probably make business sense to make it accessible to players who arnt able to escalate their game up limits based on bronze content alone.

      Instead of 100 pts / mo to maintain silver I would personally slightly re-assess article distribution between silver-gold-plat then make silver 100 pts aggegrate, permenant.

      But then, its not my business :) Im sure someone somewhere has argued this out before at length.
    • thebigheizung85
      thebigheizung85
      Silver
      Joined: 12.08.2006 Posts: 195
      i agree in a way with ramble... i mean the silver content is very effective for the microlimits and thus could help boost a lot of players...

      my own experience is i don't get why you lose access to the articles if you are downgraded from gold to silver for example... i mean you could download them in the time you have the status, right?

      there is still a lot of content that pokerstrategy could withdraw like videos and coachings and hand sample forums

      but the articles should still be open, because they are the way back to the player and status you were... i realize that the poker business works this way to set a lot of goals to players that they can achieve, but some changes might be useful to generate more value
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hello Ramble and thank you for the feedback,

      I'm glad that you are learning from our content and taking your time to enjoy the game. You are of course correct in saying that leisure & low volume players also make up a large part of our playerbase and that they are also a valuable part of the overall community.

      Setting "permanent" ranks is always a problem though - especially for anything higher than bronze / silver since it can take away a lot of the initiative to keep playing on tracked sites if one has permanent access to all the needed content anyway.

      In order to help low volume players gain access to some of the higher level content we have in the past therefore had various give-aways for temporary level increases as well as double strategy point days on various platforms. Another option to increase the amount of points without putting in more play time is to learn how to play a few more tables at the same time. Especially for SNGs where one is usually busy folding - achieving 3-4 tables should not pose much of a problem (although I can also understand leisure players preferring single tables).

      Perhaps more temporary status upgrade promotions - or temporary upgrades to silver after a certain amount of points as e.g. bronze member could be a solution. At least for the articles such a temporary boost for a month would give you plenty of time to get acquainted with some of the advanced concepts connected to this higher level.

      Best regards
      SoyCD
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Thanks for the feedback.

      I guess I should narrow the focus a bit and concentrate on how to make the silver-ranked strategy material more accessible to low volume / long-time players. Maybe the gold and platinum articles are too valuable to discuss at this point and should be reserved for the elite among us.

      I agree with thebigheizung85 that once you unlock the material, you should keep access to it.

      SoyCD - I think it's great that there are double point sessions (though I haven't noticed any in the 6 months I've been a member). I just don't think they would be of any real benefit to the type of player I'm referring to, because over that 4-week period he's only generating 25-40 points anyways. Doubling for a few days or a week isn't going to make any difference. Now if it was for the whole month, I'd be tempted to put a push on and see if I could make it.

      I still think that lifetime strategy points (aka aggregate) is the way to go. It benefits both the members and PS. The low volume members now have a goal that keeps them interested and playing, and will benefit from the silver-ranked material. PS benefits from developing their members into better/more profitable players, and the more successful a player becomes, the more likely he is to increase the volume of his play, which directly benefits PS...
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Ramble, Im sure you could make friends with a silver who could in turn easily help you in this matter.
    • Termi8r
      Termi8r
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 408
      I guess the material is sort of copy-righted and that you are allowed to download it for your own use but not to distribute it around?
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by Termi8r
      I guess the material is sort of copy-righted and that you are allowed to download it for your own use but not to distribute it around?
      Very true.
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by TheBrood
      Ramble, Im sure you could make friends with a silver who could in turn easily help you in this matter.
      Thanks TheBrood - wanna be my friend?

      Actually, I'm a bit of an ethical-nut and would have a problem getting material that people have worked so hard on, in a method they don't endorse...

      I see you're Silver - just curious (if you don't mind) how long it took you to reach? What did you play to get there? What are your thoughts about earning access at a certain lifetime strategy point level?

      Anyone else?
    • STR82ACE
      STR82ACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2008 Posts: 389
      I was Silver in April, and knowing my personal time constraints for the April and May, I knew I had to get as much of that Silver level info as I could, knowing I wouldn't have a lot of time over the next two months to retain that level, especially at the limits I was playing. And, um, I have NO personal ethical boundaries when it comes to self improvement :f_biggrin:

      Multi tabling helps, but you still have to put in a hell of a lot of hours to acquire higher status at .01/02 NL and .02/.04 NL FR games. My biggest jump personally was when I started playing 6man max NL at those limits, I ended up jumping up quickly in both bankroll AND status points.

      I'm confident I can regain Silver again for June and now that I'm playing .05/.1 NL, I'm sure I can put in enough hours at those limits to maintain my status.

      I guess the point I'm trying to make is what has already been spouting by others (Gold members now I see, nice work Jassica!), and I also see the benefit of some other kind of point structure from Bronze to Silver, albeit a temporary one. The articles in Silver are much more beneficial and educational than those at the basic Bronze level, and I think many members would benefit 10fold by the content much sooner.

      Still, not my site, not my rules. Just a personal observation.
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by Ramble
      Originally posted by TheBrood
      Ramble, Im sure you could make friends with a silver who could in turn easily help you in this matter.
      Thanks TheBrood - wanna be my friend?

      Actually, I'm a bit of an ethical-nut and would have a problem getting material that people have worked so hard on, in a method they don't endorse...

      I see you're Silver - just curious (if you don't mind) how long it took you to reach? What did you play to get there? What are your thoughts about earning access at a certain lifetime strategy point level?

      Anyone else?
      I think I got silver by playing quite a bit of NL10.

      By giving people access at lifetime point level, players are not obligated to play at PS.com tracked sites, so PS could lose money by doing this. I think its only fair that we earn our right to read certain articles.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Possibly something along the lines of if you've earned x strategy points every month for say 3 consecutive months you can get a one off one month access to Silver articles perhaps?

      Otherwise, I guess its just a case of you can't please all of the people all of the time.
    • delete461
      delete461
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.07.2008 Posts: 1,036
      Bronze material is all you need to beat the micro limits - silver/gold material isnt needed until you hit middle limits, if anything it may damage your game at the micros by making it too complex. Simple, ABC poker as taught to bronze members is the best way to beat the fish on micro limits.

      Maybe people who achieve silver/gold status could hold their rank a little longer though, eg earning 800 points in 4 weeks could guarantee you gold status for 3 months or something then you drop to silver, then bronze after a while. This would make it rather difficult for ps staff though.
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      It doesn't sound like there's a lot of SnG players here... One 9-player tourney probably averages about 45+ minutes and only generates me 0.50 strategy points...

      I haven't read the cash game strategies or tried to play those games... starting out with basic starting capital, good BRM, and sticking to strategies - would you guys say easier or harder to accumulate strategy points vs SnG?
    • monkey0nfire
      monkey0nfire
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2009 Posts: 255
      i got to silver relatively easilt by just playing NL10, usu. for 2hours a day (sometimes less) for around 5 days..so its not that hard to maintain a silver status.. but i understand the concept of 'part-time' players moving uo.

      But then u gotta think what it makes the long time players feel when they obv. have put the time in and they are ranked as equals with some1 that, say, has played NL10 for 5 years and got the PS points that way.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by Ramble
      It doesn't sound like there's a lot of SnG players here... One 9-player tourney probably averages about 45+ minutes and only generates me 0.25 strategy points...
      You could always start playing "sets". I started with four at a time, starting up a new one if I busted out early. Easy way to quadruple your SPs without adding any time.

      It only takes a little work to make multitabling work for you. If you felt this was daunting you could always start with 2-3 at a time. If you felt ambitious I think boku87 hit 50+ at a time.. :f_cool:
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      I've just tried doing 2 tables at once... (finished 1st and 4th) went ok for most part, but a couple of times felt rushed... I guess it'll take some practice.

      I think I'll have to work my way up to 3-4 tables in order to reach silver...
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Baby steps :)

      Like everything new it can take some getting used too. I'm sure it won't be long till you're a multitabling fool. Best of luck!
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by Ramble
      I've just tried doing 2 tables at once... (finished 1st and 4th) went ok for most part, but a couple of times felt rushed... I guess it'll take some practice.

      I think I'll have to work my way up to 3-4 tables in order to reach silver...
      Yes, it takes practice! Slowly you will recognize similar situations repeating themselves and you will know what to do without thinking about it too much. This in turn allows you to add another table.
      I started with 1 table and now Im doing 5 BSS, and with crappy ipoker software too =)
    • luitzen
      luitzen
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2009 Posts: 664
      Silver rank is pretty easy to reach. If you 4-table or 6-table an hour a day for 4 weeks you should be able to reach silver rank. As soon as you have reached silver rank, save all the articles to your webpages and you're still be able to read them after you dropped back to bronze. I think I'm going to do the same now I'm finally gold.