[NL2-NL10] NL10 FR:QQ against a nit

    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $9.40
      SB(Hero):
      $20.30
      BB:
      $10.65
      MP1:
      $10.00
      MP2:
      $4.40
      MP3:
      $5.55
      CO:
      $10.85

      Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q.
      4 folds, CO raises to $0.4, BU folds, Hero raises to $1.2, BB folds, CO calls $0.80, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Flop: ($1.35) 9, A, J (1 players)
      Hero bets $1.20, CO raises to $2.4, Hero folds.

      Final Pot: $4.95.


      He played 9/6 in a very small sample.
      Not sure about the flop here. He is most likely to have a ace here but if I checking I'm pretty much giving up on the pot.

      Edit: I think half pot bet will be enoguh to tell me where am I at.
  • 11 replies
    • Michailewic
      Michailewic
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2008 Posts: 1,418
      I would raise to $1,4 preflop since you are OOP.

      In 3-bet pot, 1/2-pot size bet ($0,7) would be sufficient.

      Your bet is too high even if it had not been for 3-bet pot (2/3-pot size bet would be sufficient).
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Do you always put 2BB more when you 3betting OOP?
      About my bet on the flop, I didn't realize until I read you comment that I bet so much... :)
      It was intened to be a half pot bet.
    • Michailewic
      Michailewic
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2008 Posts: 1,418
      I raise to (3+ 1 per coldcaller)x the bet and (3,5 + 1 per coldcaller) if I am SB or BB. If SB bets, then I raise to 3x his bet.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Got any Math behind it? ( the (3,5 + 1 cc)x3) 3bet out of the blinds )
    • Michailewic
      Michailewic
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2008 Posts: 1,418
      see this article: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/270/2/

      and add +0,5 if you are OOP since you want them to pay little bit more since you will have disadvantage being OOP.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Yea I'm familiar with the standard 3bet amount.
      My question regarding the math issue is - why do we make it x3 and not x3.5 or x3.7? Why does x3 is the optimal 3bet amount?
    • Michailewic
      Michailewic
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2008 Posts: 1,418
      I would say that this is more about fold equity. By raising bigger, you want that less opponents would call you and you wish to be heads-up against one opponent. This raise size seems optimal to reduce your opponents to call your and to protect you against investing so much money (when you do not hit anything on the flop and you are against more opponents, etc.).

      On higher limites, also smaller raises may achieve the same goal. But up to NL 50, I would recommend standard raise sizes. Also smaller sizes require much more post flop skills.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by maya1984
      Yea I'm familiar with the standard 3bet amount.
      My question regarding the math issue is - why do we make it x3 and not x3.5 or x3.7? Why does x3 is the optimal 3bet amount?
      It's just only because you don't want others to give correct odds to Call and x3 is the perfect amount to force others to make mistakes with their Callings, for example with smaller PPs. The main point in poker is to force others to make mistakes and with betting & raising you are forcing them to do so. For example if you get on flop like $0.10 into $1 pot, sure a flushdraw gets correct odds to Call but if you make a normal bet, lets say $0.70 then you are forcing them to make a mistake with Calling there, they only have implied odds. Hope it makes sense now. :)
    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      i dont understand something.

      4 folds, CO raises to $0.4, BU folds, Hero raises to $1.2, BB folds, CO calls $0.80, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      how the pot on the flop is 1.35 ?
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Veriz, The logic behind 3betting is clear to me. I'm asking about the size of the 3bet, why does mathematically x3 is the "perfect" size? why not x3.5 for example.
      So Michailewic answered we just don't want to commit too much money which is a reasonable answer but then I can ask we don't we make x2.5?
      I'm actually looking for a pure mathematically answer here... :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by maya1984
      Veriz, The logic behind 3betting is clear to me. I'm asking about the size of the 3bet, why does mathematically x3 is the "perfect" size? why not x3.5 for example.
      So Michailewic answered we just don't want to commit too much money which is a reasonable answer but then I can ask we don't we make x2.5?
      I'm actually looking for a pure mathematically answer here... :)
      PP = 1:7.5 (that means pocket pairs are played profitable with those odds)

      I am making an example where we minraise:
      CO raises to $0.40
      Hero raises to $0.80
      SB = $0.05
      BB = $0.1
      Total pot = $1.35

      CO has pot odds 1.35:0.40
      He gets 1:3.38 pot odds, that means he is getting pretty perfect implied odds with his Call and he ain't doing a big mistake with his Call.

      If he raise bigger to $1.20:
      Total pot = $1.75

      Co has pot odds 1.75:0.80
      He gets now 1:2,19 pot odds, that means he is getting even worse implied odds with his Call and is doing much bigger mistake with his Call.

      So conclusion would be that we can't raise too small because we are just giving them perfect implied odds to Call it preflop but that ain't the case. Ye sure sometimes we can raise bigger, for example being OOP. But if we raise too big then they will very often fold because they aren't getting correct implied odds.