playing draw

    • Dziurgis
      Dziurgis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2008 Posts: 82
      OK, i got a little confused after rereading this article.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/993/

      The table shows that we have from flop to turn 4:1 on flush draw and 2:1 from flop to river.

      For simplicity lets assume we have a flush draw on the flop and got offered 3:1 odds. Can we call? I always thought we are drawing 2 cards, so in that situation we could call it. On the other hand from the article I understood that we are drawing on one card from flop to turn if we are not going all in on flop which would let us see both cards.

      well, lets take out the rest stuff like implied odds and so one. Just pure mathematics. Can I call flush draw on flop offered 3:1?
  • 8 replies
    • Dziurgis
      Dziurgis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2008 Posts: 82
      I hate to bump it my self but any one? ?(
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      Yes, if you are calling an all in.
    • steIIstuI
      steIIstuI
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,587
      this depends on so many factors.

      Opposite player image, stage of tournament, chips you have left.
    • Dziurgis
      Dziurgis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2008 Posts: 82
      Yes, if you are calling an all in.


      i was asking NOT about all in situation. lets say both opponents have 100bb stacks. you are in possition and got offered 3:1 to call a flush draw. is it mathematically correct to call it?
    • Dziurgis
      Dziurgis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2008 Posts: 82
      Originally posted by steIIstuI
      this depends on so many factors.

      Opposite player image, stage of tournament, chips you have left.
      i talk about cash game.
    • MAGICBRYAN
      MAGICBRYAN
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.03.2009 Posts: 305
      Hi Dziurgis,

      A quick rule of thumb which I don't believe is taught in the articles here, but which stuck in my mind when I read it elsewhere, because it is a quick method, is the 4/2 rule.

      This works out your % chance of hitting a draw, and is not 100% accurate mathematically, but is a good quick approximation.

      You take your no. of outs, and with 2 csrds to come multiply by 4 and with one card to come, multiply by 2.

      For your flush (assuming 9 outs)

      flop = 2 cards to come = 4x9 = 36%
      turn = 1 card to come = 2x9 = 18%

      So if you are getting 3:1 on the flop with a 36% chance to hit, I would say that mathematically it is a call. Though of course in poker, that is never all the story...

      All the best
      Bryan
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hello Dziurgis,

      To start off let me quote the general rule for this

      If the pot odds are better (so the ratio is bigger) than the odds against completing your hand, you will make profit in the long run. If they are worse, you will make losses in the long run.

      So if you have Flushdraw with which you are 4:1 to complete by the turn (therefore 1 every 5 times) and you are getting 3:1 to call then calling is not profitable. This is without taking implied odds into account though - which are actually quite important from flop->turn with big stacks.

      A good example of where you'd have this kind of situation would be for example "You are on the turn and have 3:1 pot odds to call a flushdraw while being OOP - you know that if the flush hits your opponent will fold and not pay any more money" -> in this case the call would in fact be -EV since you only win 1 in every 5 times but have to pay 3:1 while having 0 implied odds.

      In the SSS article - you rarely get into a situation in which you could call a flush draw that wouldn't commit you to the pot. Since you will either fold or go all-in on the flop with your FD you take the 2:1 odds that you get for seeing both the turn and river. Here 3:1 would be enough

      Hope to have helped :)

      Best regards
      SoyCD
    • Dziurgis
      Dziurgis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2008 Posts: 82
      Hi MAGICBRYAN and SoyCD,

      Thank you for your answers.
      Well, it is how I was always playing. I read this 2/4 rule somewhere also. Although I did not use it all the time because I have a table with precentages which are very close to this. I use this rule than I play live mostly.

      I did not take into account that this article is written for SSS. Everything is making seance now. I had in mind a deep stack play.

      I just lately was analysing some PT3 stats and noticed that I am loosing money with straight and flush draws on flop and this article confused me.