One more fixed limit question

    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      I have read in the RIVER play that :

      If you had a top pair or overpair on the flop or on the turn which you only called, you also only cold call an eventual bet on the river. In case several opponents show strength by betting/raising, you are more often than not behind and should fold.



      So are we assumng this means yu had a top/over on the flop or turn which you only called AND THEN CONTINUED TO HOLD A TOP OR OVERPAIR ON THE RIVER OTHERISE IT WOULD NOW BE TRASH AND BE PLAYED BY THE CHECK/MUCK 2+ OPPONENETS RULE / CALL ONE OPP's BET rule??

      Edit = no initiative play
  • 10 replies
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello Gennady007!

      Could you please link me to the exact article in which this is written so I can see what exactly don't you understand :) ?

      And please don't use the caps lock, it's really unneccessary ;) .

      Regards,

      Primzi
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/236/4/

      Under the NoInitiative
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello again!

      I suggest that you watch the video example on the same page, it should help you understand better :) .

      You bet if you hit top pair on the river. If someone raises behind you, or bets in front of you, you call. In case you'd have to pay more than one bet, like if somebody made a bet in front of you and a raise was added, you should fold.


      Since you have no initiative on the turn, this means that you probably didn't have a made hand but were rather on a flush/straight draw. This means that you usually have marginal hands like K9s or QJo. In case that you hit a top pair on the river rather than your flush/straight draw, you now have the top pair with a weak kicker, which means that the top pair with a better kicker beats you, and that is why you should bet/call river. There is also a possibility that someone has a better hand than you like two pair or three of a kind, that is why we do not 3-bet river (oponnent shows strength). If two oponnents show strength that means you are even less likely ahead of them both so you should just fold and muck your cards ;) .

      If you had a top pair or overpair on the flop or on the turn which you only called, you also only cold call an eventual bet on the river. In case several opponents show strength by betting/raising, you are more often than not behind and should fold.


      This means that your top pair or overpair on the flop and turn was still rather weak (board was J379 and you had J5, so you called flop and turn because you have a weak kicker but still might be ahead), and that's why you should only call river as well. There are not many situations where we only call flop with an overpair, but I guess one of them would be if we had a hand like 77 and the board was 2345 or something similar which means we are still beating the pairs, but are behind straigths and flushes (if at least 3 cards of one suit are on on the board and you have an overpair).

      You bet or raise with two pairs or better, if no better hand is likely. Otherwise you only call.


      If you have two pair on the river and there are not many draws on the board you should of course bet or raise river. However, if it is very likely that someone has a straight or a flush, you should bet/call.

      If you don't have a made hand, you check and muck your cards if an opponent bets.


      If you don't have a made hand, you should of course check/fold, I think that makes sense :) .

      I hope this answers all of your questions, if you still don't understand something, feel free to reply to this thread again and I shall do my best to answer your questions :) .

      As I can see you are bronze now, so good luck with learning the bronze articles!

      Regards,

      Primzi
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      Sorry.... still the same question

      when w have initiative and:

      Hero: K5

      flop : K37
      Tun: 6
      River: A

      Is this situatio a ''If you had a top pair or overpair on the flop or on the turn which you only called, you also only cold call an eventual bet on the river. In case several opponents show strength by betting/raising, you are more often than not behind and should fold.''

      or only this situation:

      Hero:K5

      table:k3926
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello!

      Could you please find the hands in your hand history, convert them with one of the hand converters and post your hands in the evaluation section?

      Because there are several factors that matter in these hands... Like the number of oponnents, board texture, preflop action, flop action, turn action etc. ;) .

      That way I can give you better and more definite answers instead having to make assumptions about important factors :) .

      Regards,

      Primzi
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      Im talking from a basic literature point of view, i dont understand what it says, i have never had this situation but i would like to know what to do from the basic strategy point of view.

      When it says top pair or overpair on the flop or turn, does it also consider the fact that on the river it is no longer top pair, or that on the river it is still top pair?
    • Alafoe
      Alafoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2008 Posts: 202
      If you have top pair and week kicker its on you how to play it. You can even decide for calldown. If you are slowplaying aces to fold them on the river to 2Bet you missplayed something...
    • kennyxx
      kennyxx
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.05.2008 Posts: 998
      Originally posted by Gennady007
      Sorry.... still the same question

      when w have initiative and:

      Hero: K5

      flop : K37
      Tun: 6
      River: A

      Is this situatio a ''If you had a top pair or overpair on the flop or on the turn which you only called, you also only cold call an eventual bet on the river. In case several opponents show strength by betting/raising, you are more often than not behind and should fold.''

      or only this situation:

      Hero:K5

      table:k3926
      Hi Gennady007,

      about Your example, if You decided to call Your top pair on flop and turn, You should call one bet on the river (in general). However once You will be faced this situation in real game, You will see it's not so easy to decide without any informations. Theese articles gives You some basic concepts, but depending on situation Your action may (and should) vary. You have to consider suitedness, previous actions, reads You have on Your opponents, number of oponnents...
      Every single hand is different and You have to think about it. Of course it's OK to be perfectly theoreticaly prepaired, but the real learning process will start at the tables and by reviewing and correcting mistakes You already did.

      Hope this helps,
      kennyxx
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      I understand and have been in various situations, I jsut wish to kno what that particular part of the article is saying about that particular thing, I know flop textue / ods outs etc... will hve a more advance say in the matter nd every hand varies yada yada. But please tell me what the actall article is saying, im sorry for asking so many times, i wish to know.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello again!

      Since it seems to me like you need an example to understand, I'll post an example hand:

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A :spade: 5 :heart:
      CO raises, Hero calls

      Flop: A :spade: 4 :diamond: 9 :club:

      Hero checks, CO raises, Hero calls

      Turn: 7 :heart:

      Hero checks, CO raises, Hero calls

      River: 3 :spade:

      Hero checks, CO raises, Hero calls

      This is a perfect example. We have the top pair but a weak kicker, which means we are way ahead of all the non A hands but are drawing to 3 outs against the A with a higher kicker. I think the article means this.

      You cannot just say "when we have initiative" or "when he do not have initiative" because it depends on how the whole hand went. In the example I've written, CO raised preflop which means it is likely that he has an ace. If he only limped preflop, we can bet the flop and the whole hand changes. If we had K5 and called preflop, we would call down on K3926 board if we are OOP and our oponnent keeps betting all streets.

      I hope that makes things a bit clearer :) .

      If we had K5 and raised preflop from SB and BB called, we would bet on K37 flop, also bet 6 turn and check/call on the river. You will get the further explanation in the bronze and silver articles. I have not seen any hands from you in the hand evaluation section yet, so if you need any more of our help with your played hands, you should post them there. If you have any questions regarding articles, please post them in the fixed limit strategy discussion forum. I also recommend learning the bronze articles and watching the cornholio's fixed limit series part 1 and 2 or one of the terrorblade's bronze videos for many useful beginner tips.

      Again good luck with learning!

      Regards,

      Primzi