Possible addition to SSS?

  • 16 replies
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
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      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      yep, and every body do it
      you are not the first one that figures that out
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by Deckard33
      maybe with the proviso you only play QQ or better?
      In fact it's just the opposite. Remember as you go from SSS to BSS you play more hands right? So as your stack size increases you can actually open up your range just a little. (Mainly your stealing range if you are first to open.)
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by kukkiwonBG
      yep, and every body do it
      you are not the first one that figures that out
      Now now, there's no need to be rude!

      I didn't blind out at the beginning of my SSS career, I rather just left the table when I doubled up to not lose a double stack.

      To the OP:

      Hello!

      If you double up you can of course just wait until you blind out on the table. A SSS coach/experienced player will probably be able to give you a better opinion on this (I suggest you ask this question in Gerv's or Ingolpoker's coaching), but I used to only push AA/KK because with QQ you're sometimes flipping and I don't like flipping for a double stack. For the same reason I didn't play AK either. Of course you can play QQ with double stack as well but you will just increase your variance by a lot if you do that.

      Regards,

      Primzi
    • Deckard33
      Deckard33
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      Joined: 20.05.2009 Posts: 80
      Thanks for the replies. I think if the point is made never to post a BB out of turn then this point is worth mentioning.

      Sorry if I'm covering old ground here kukki I've only been here a couple of weeks.

      I see what you're saying tokyo, but I don't think it's correct. The point of SSS is to get the money deposited then come back with 20BBs again. If you loosen your requirements before you leave the table UTG you may not get there with your stack intact.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by Deckard33
      I see what you're saying tokyo, but I don't think it's correct.
      However it is, in fact, correct. Harrington on Cash Games Vol I. gives an excellent run-down of why.
    • Deckard33
      Deckard33
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      Joined: 20.05.2009 Posts: 80
      KK that makes sense cheers Primzi.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      Originally posted by Deckard33
      maybe with the proviso you only play QQ or better?
      In fact it's just the opposite. Remember as you go from SSS to BSS you play more hands right? So as your stack size increases you can actually open up your range just a little. (Mainly your stealing range if you are first to open.)
      Hello!

      It is not advised to play the mid stack strategy with double stack (or >25BB) and it definetely isn't the same to play BSS and big stack strategy. Because we are playing SSS it is not advised to play looser after you double up because sometimes you won't know how to act in certain situations postflop and if you push (after stealing/restealing) looser preflop you are risking more money to push with a worse hand? I don't think that makes much sense ;) . You usually can't steal anymore anyways since you're blinding out which means you're in middle/early position in most cases. If you do steal your stealing should still be based on your equity vs. oponnent's hand range, but I would avoid stealing with >25BB stack.

      Regards,

      Primzi
    • Deckard33
      Deckard33
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      Joined: 20.05.2009 Posts: 80
      Honestly tokyo I don't think you are correct as this is not Harringtons SSS, my brother has the book and I'll read it on your recommendation. Thanks
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
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      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      Originally posted by Primzi

      I didn't blind out at the beginning of my SSS career, I rather just left the table when I doubled up to not lose a double stack.
      That don't make it right.
      and I'm not rude :s_o:
    • AussieIan
      AussieIan
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.12.2007 Posts: 366
      @tokyo.....you'd be correct if your stack went from 20BB to 100, this is where you loosen up and play more hands. 35-40 BB IS NOT BSS. If you loosen up after a double up with SSS, you'll leave the table with nothing. Playing anything but premium hands AA/KK (as mentioned earlier) is just not worth it with a medium stack, where you dont have the benefits of short stack or big stack play.

      I suggest you do a bit more reading on this site to augment your Harrington reading. While he is a good read, the information here will help you more while you continure your education.

      @deckard33....take Primzi's advice, and you can maybe add QQ if you're prepared to lay it down to a reraise or post flop overcard...depending on the table. Good luck at the tables
    • Deckard33
      Deckard33
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      Joined: 20.05.2009 Posts: 80
      Cheers Ian, I have to say I'd find it hard to bin queens especially as I'm only playing NL10. I know the BB size is not the point and I'm trying to develop good habits but with only 12 hands out of 1326 that have me beat preflop I'm probably playing.

      But as Primzi says I guess I can add a coin toss against AK to those 12 hands and suddenly decisions need to be made ?(
    • Volrath89
      Volrath89
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      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,170
      For me it all depends on your postflop skills. If you have only played SSS and are starting your poker carrer, I'd really only stick to AA/KK and ofc play them with the same agression, being all in preflop with those hands is exactly what you want.

      You can play QQ, AK but have to be more cautious with them. At the beg. just fold them if someone raised before. If you are the first to act raise them and c-bet, but most of the times give up unimproved on the turn.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      The reason everyone says to play only QQ+ is because SSS is mainly played by players that don't have so good postflop skills. But, if a player with good postflop skills (that usually plays with a full stack) plays for whatever reason SSS and doubles his stack he can play profitable more hands than just QQ+ and AK. In theory you can play more hands profitably if you double. In practice the SSS player won't know how to play them profitable because of his poor postflop skills.

      Anyway, this is available for weaker hands, not for hands so strong like AK or QQ. With AK you won't have difficult decisions even if you double. If you will hit the flop you will have TPTK and you will want to play for your stack. If not, you can easily bet/fold. AK is easier to play than QQ because with QQ you are afraid of 2 overcards, with AK there aren't any overcards that you are afraid of. If you have AK or QQ and someone raises preflop in front of you, you 3bet and call a shove. If you're afraid you will lose a double stack and that's the reason you don't play AK, then maybe is better to sit out after you've doubled up (you can lose your stack with AA too). Remember, you can't lose what you don't put in the middle. But you can't win much either. My advice is never fold preflop QQ and AK after you've doubled up unless you have a strong read that you're beat.
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      Originally posted by adr0001
      The reason everyone says to play only QQ+ is because SSS is mainly played by players that don't have so good postflop skills. But, if a player with good postflop skills (that usually plays with a full stack) plays for whatever reason SSS and doubles his stack he can play profitable more hands than just QQ+ and AK. In theory you can play more hands profitably if you double. In practice the SSS player won't know how to play them profitable because of his poor postflop skills.

      Anyway, this is available for weaker hands, not for hands so strong like AK or QQ. With AK you won't have difficult decisions even if you double. If you will hit the flop you will have TPTK and you will want to play for your stack. If not, you can easily bet/fold. AK is easier to play than QQ because with QQ you are afraid of 2 overcards, with AK there aren't any overcards that you are afraid of. If you have AK or QQ and someone raises preflop in front of you, you 3bet and call a shove. If you're afraid you will lose a double stack and that's the reason you don't play AK, then maybe is better to sit out after you've doubled up (you can lose your stack with AA too). Remember, you can't lose what you don't put in the middle. But you can't win much either. My advice is never fold preflop QQ and AK after you've doubled up unless you have a strong read that you're beat.
      +1
    • BogdanDin7
      BogdanDin7
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      Joined: 29.04.2008 Posts: 1,114
      Originally posted by excelgeo
      Originally posted by adr0001
      The reason everyone says to play only QQ+ is because SSS is mainly played by players that don't have so good postflop skills. But, if a player with good postflop skills (that usually plays with a full stack) plays for whatever reason SSS and doubles his stack he can play profitable more hands than just QQ+ and AK. In theory you can play more hands profitably if you double. In practice the SSS player won't know how to play them profitable because of his poor postflop skills.

      Anyway, this is available for weaker hands, not for hands so strong like AK or QQ. With AK you won't have difficult decisions even if you double. If you will hit the flop you will have TPTK and you will want to play for your stack. If not, you can easily bet/fold. AK is easier to play than QQ because with QQ you are afraid of 2 overcards, with AK there aren't any overcards that you are afraid of. If you have AK or QQ and someone raises preflop in front of you, you 3bet and call a shove. If you're afraid you will lose a double stack and that's the reason you don't play AK, then maybe is better to sit out after you've doubled up (you can lose your stack with AA too). Remember, you can't lose what you don't put in the middle. But you can't win much either. My advice is never fold preflop QQ and AK after you've doubled up unless you have a strong read that you're beat.
      +1
      +2

      As a BSS player can`t see any reason whatsoever not to push QQ/AKs. Most good BSS players will even go most of the time for 100BB so I don`t see what`s 40BB. Even if it`s 2 BI it`s still ++EV and as a SS player you should have a good BRM and 2 BI should not be any type of scare money for you. I think I could also see reasons to push even JJ/TT in some spots considering you will have way more FE .
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by AussieIan
      @tokyo.....you'd be correct if your stack went from 20BB to 100, this is where you loosen up and play more hands. 35-40 BB IS NOT BSS. If you loosen up after a double up with SSS, you'll leave the table with nothing. Playing anything but premium hands AA/KK (as mentioned earlier) is just not worth it with a medium stack, where you dont have the benefits of short stack or big stack play.
      There is not one single hand that becomes unplayable from the SSS strategy just because you have more than 25BB. If you can find one then please tell me what it is.

      However there are definitely hands that become mathematically profitable as you gain more money relative to the blinds assuming you can play postflop.

      If one wanted to know what those hands might be they could sit down with equilator and a BSS hand chart and find out the strongest BSS hands that aren't in the SSS chart and see how they stack up.

      I stand 100% by my original statement. If you double up while playing SSS and do not immediately leave the table then you should not change your starting hand selection. Raise sizes and such decisions will be affected though.