Ill sum it up quickly this time :)

    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      I posted this already on the bronze FL strategy board after primzi replied to a different question i had but no one replied for a while and i thing i wrote way too much so i sumarised it here. This question(s) is like a basic strategy / beginner thing anyway.

      Lets make it short and to the point this time:

      1. With the initiative on the river it says ''bet any made hand'' - consider this pair+ or top pair+? because under no initiative it tells you to call a bet even if your pair is no longer top pait. Just consider any made hands any pair +?

      2. On the turn with initiative you should bet strong draw against 2 ops and less. with 2 or more you should check such draws. question: consider lower than top pair a draw? It is sometimes profitable to bet like a pair of tens when there is a jack on the board and no one is betting + inititive? Obvisouly the question about weather to check and then call lower than top pairs on the turn is added to this.

      3. OESD + Flushdraw = monsterdraw AND gutshot + flushdraw = monster draw?

      4. Always treat 2nd best pair as trash on the flop?

      5. And the last thing that i noticed, even though it is maybe obvious, but alot of times on the turn you are told to raise/bet ''two pairS +'' . Question - pretend that it says ''two PAIR +''?? i mean i guess it makes sense you have chance for full house BUT if there is a pair on the table that is bad.


      thanks alot
  • 11 replies
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      Did i do something wrong by posting this on the begginer forum? Primzi answered some of my earlier questions on the bronze FL board but I wrote too much after and didn't get a reply so I decided to shorten i down a bit and post it here. Sorry if it is annoying :(
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      Hi,

      I don't know first thing about FL but it will help you to go to coachings. You can watch the coach play and listen to his reasoning and you can ask you questions there and get answers withing seconds..
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      Can anyone help? (Primzi :) )??
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      1. Sometimes "made hand" is also A-high. It defers from type of players at a table, preflop play, number of player, board, etc...
      If you have QJ and there is a J on a board and if K or A on a river comes, you still have to bet.

      2. You have a draw when you don't have a made hand. Tens are usually good even with J on a board.

      3. OESD+FD for sure a monster draw, I guess FD+gutshot too, even though you have 3 outs less. Maybe with overcards :)
      Nothing about that in articles?

      4. No way. 2nd pair is usually good. Important is how many players there are, preflop action, etc...

      5. Not sure if I understand what you mean...
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello!

      I didn't ses this topic earlier, where did it come from :| ?

      I think corey covered it all and discovered a new draw - OESD + gutshot :D !

      I suggest you to move on to bronze and silver articles from the basic ones as they are way more precise and you shouldn't have troubles understanding them.

      Regards,

      Primzi
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      Originally posted by Primzi
      I think corey covered it all and discovered a new draw - OESD + gutshot :D !
      lol
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi Gennady007,

      I try answering all your question. If I miss something or if I'm unclear please let me know. :)

      Originally posted by Gennady007
      1. With the initiative on the river it says ''bet any made hand'' - consider this pair+ or top pair+? because under no initiative it tells you to call a bet even if your pair is no longer top pait. Just consider any made hands any pair +?
      I think toppair+ is meant.
      Here:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/234/2/#h1_2
      That is because it makes no sense to bet the river with a hand that can only be called by better hands. Often second and third pair are good enough to bet as well but that highly depends on the board structure, previous action and opponent.
      As default go with toppair+ and post hands where you are unsure in our sample hand forum. :)

      2. On the turn with initiative you should bet strong draw against 2 ops and less. with 2 or more you should check such draws. question: consider lower than top pair a draw? It is sometimes profitable to bet like a pair of tens when there is a jack on the board and no one is betting + inititive? Obvisouly the question about weather to check and then call lower than top pairs on the turn is added to this.
      A draw is as well explained in an article.
      Here it is:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/234/3/#h1_3

      You are correct. Often it's correct to continue with second pair but that is no basic strategy anymore. :)

      3. OESD + Flushdraw = monsterdraw AND gutshot + flushdraw = monster draw?
      It's a very strong draw. A monsterdraw has 15+ outs.

      [quote]4. Always treat 2nd best pair as trash on the flop?[quote]

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/234/4/#h1_4

      "4. What are worthless hands / Trash?
      Hands other than those described above will rarely be able to win a showdown. They have little opportunity to improve and are not good made hands."

      If you play by the beginner article then yes.

      5. And the last thing that i noticed, even though it is maybe obvious, but alot of times on the turn you are told to raise/bet ''two pairS +'' . Question - pretend that it says ''two PAIR +''?? i mean i guess it makes sense you have chance for full house BUT if there is a pair on the table that is bad.
      If there is a pair on board and you play it then you hold only 1 pair.
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      Ok thanks its about time to stop pretending like im a begginer. But what i mean is that the article says Two PaiR = both you pocket cards match 2 cards on the board. TWO PAIRS = you have a pocket pair and there is another pair on the board. so the question remains - it says alot of bet/raise and call when there is loads of actions but it says to do this (ususally in the Turn and River play) with two pairS + / this makes no sense, is it trying to say TWO PAIR +?? if you can answer this tanks, i jsut dont see why it is recomended to beginers to do this with two pairS instead of PAIR
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      That has to be a spelling mistake. I think it should be always twopair.

      The mistake may come from the translation as it was a german article at first (I think it was so).
      We always add the s when we talk about plural so twopair becomes twopairs. :)

      Can you link me an example where it's twopairs? Maybe I'm talking complete nonsense. :)
    • Gennady007
      Gennady007
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 31
      K this is where it says two pairS:

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/236/2/
      NOBODY HAS BET YET AND YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INITIATIVE

      You bet with ...
      Two pairs or better.

      You check with ...
      Any other hand.

      SOMEONE MADE A BET IN FRONT OF YOU

      You raise with ...
      Two pairs or better.

      SOMEONE MADE A BET AND ONE OR MORE RAISES FOLLOWED

      You raise with ...
      Two pairs or better, if you assume to have the best hand considering the community cards.

      ...


      Just look throughout the whole article - same mistake EVERYWHERE!

      Not good for begginers IMO.
    • funktor
      funktor
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      No, 2nd pair is not trash :f_biggrin:

      Ok, now more to it... if he has hand he would let me know... well he would let me know most of the time... I saw guy call me down with AA and never raised (even preflop).

      If I got raised on turn, I have hard time and have to fold here most of the time. If I got called to river, I might want to just check behind as he might me calling down with some sort of Jx hand. But anyway aggression generates great fold equity and he might have some pocket pair <9, etc.

      F


      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $1/$2 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, A.
      MP3 folds, Hero raises, BU folds, SB calls, BB calls.

      Flop: (6 SB) J, 5, 9 (3 players)
      SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds.

      Turn: (5.5 BB) 5 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: 5.5 BB.