[NL2-NL10] Confused of how to play JJ OOP at FR vs Unknowns

    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $25,00
      MP2:
      $25,00

      0,1/0,25 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J:diamond: , J:club:
      2 folds, MP2 raises to $1,00, 3 folds, Hero calls $0,90, BB folds.

      Flop: ($2,25) 6:heart: , 3:diamond: , 2:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 bets $1,50, Hero raises to $4,50
      ------------------------
      I don't think i had 20 hands sample before this hand, or i overlooked it. Anyway, i called preflop because if i'd 3bet i think i'd just isolate myself against range that crushes me since i treat all unknown fullstacked players as TAGs so my plan was basically call and go broke on safe flop where he could be going broke with wider range (than the one which could call 3bet PF) of which many hands i'd beat or try and get a cheap SD at not good flops. but basically after reviewing this hand it just looks like i'd be representing sets on such flops (esp w c/r line) and it's bad since i don't want to be representing stronger hands than i actually hold when i am trying to get money in. On the other side i don't like c/c flop because if turn is a scare card and he barrels again i'm lost again. Any thoughts?
  • 7 replies
    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      3bet pf. JJ is too strong just to call because if a Q/K/A hits the flop what u gonna do?
      as played c/r is good as u will represent strong hand and make him fold.

      "basically call and go broke on safe flop where he could be going broke with wider range"

      TAG to do this? what is the range u are giving him that u can beat with JJ on such board? a solid TAG wont go broke with TT so dont try such plays.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by silent21
      3bet pf. JJ is too strong just to call because if a Q/K/A hits the flop what u gonna do?
      as played c/r is good as u will represent strong hand and make him fold.

      "basically call and go broke on safe flop where he could be going broke with wider range"

      TAG to do this? what is the range u are giving him that u can beat with JJ on such board? a solid TAG wont go broke with TT so dont try such plays.
      At shorthanded games i would, but at FR players tend to be more nitty so basically i'f id 3bet him i think his calling range would be smth like TT+ and AK maybe we can even rule out TT, AA probably would 4bet and K would 4bet like 75% of the time and call the rest. So i really wouldn't like to isolate against such range OOP. Would he go broke with TT? Since i'm unknown to him, maybe, but probably not on this flop, smth like 223 more likely.
      If Q/K/A hits flop i c/c and reev turn.
      as played c/r is good as u will represent strong hand and make him fold.

      well, you see that's whole problem if i represent stronger hand than i have i basically bluff, so i could do this with ATC instead of JJ and it would even be a better play.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello,

      Preflop: Still 3betting preflop, missing value against this unknown opponent.

      As played
      Flop: I don't mind Check/Raise, by donking out yourself he likely is just folding and you lose some value, otherwise by Check/Raise you get at least some money from him because he is very often going to CBet on such board.

      Best regards,
      Rensu
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      We fold if he 4bets right? If answer is no, why not?
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      I usually fold JJ a to 4bet in FR (against unknown) unless I have a read on the villain.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by TheBrood
      We fold if he 4bets right? If answer is no, why not?
      That depends on which range we put him on. I am not saying that we can't fold it here, sure we can, there is no point to continue with our hand when we know his range can be only QQ+ here. But if we put him on wider range then our pushes can be profitable in long run but against a tigher range we can't play such hande profitable, everything is stuck in math. Depends on our equity and stuff. :P I am sure that those sentences didn't make you clear all those things but you will start understanding it with some time and experience. For example you could read this article: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/1219/. This helps a lot to understand how the EV is calculated and try to make some calculations and you will get the idea when it's profitable to move your stack all-in and when it ain't.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Brood, In addition I suggest you download PS' Equilator software found in:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/software/6/
      It's a powerful tool which even can be used in a live session.

      Generally speaking we can't get a good estimation on an unknown villain's 4bet range. A standard 4bet range in FR micro-stakes poker (NL2-NL25 ,where ABC poker rules... :) ) from a thinking player is around AK/QQ+.

      The equity of JJ against this range is 36% which make it a bit more clear why folding JJ to a 4bet is not a bad move.