Limping PP early position unprofitable?

    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Hi, Im a sng/mtt low limit player. It seems that limping with pockets is very bad early position because of two reasons:

      1) Main reason: At low limits ($1 and $1,5), there are very agressive players who will raise with every broadway cards or something like that. It usuallys happens like that: I limp, someone raises, I dont get odds to call and i fold, loosing 1BB.
      2) If i pass reason #1, i will only hit my set 10% of the time.


      Please give me your feedback :s_grin:
  • 16 replies
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      it is unprofitable if you can't call a raise to play for set value. Iif you are deep enough it's not unprofitable and have great implied odds against those players that stackoff way too light.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      If you want to really take advantage of small and medium pocket pairs play cash. I'm probably not too good to give advice about SnG's but I think it's "safe" to say this: i believe it's more profitable to limp with pocket pairs if you are playing a tournament WHITOUT rebuy or add-on (players will be tighter, or atleast you won't see all in's all the time) and the blinds are big, but not big enough to make the others want to steal them (something like 50/100 and you have about 2000 or more and so are your opponents). Hopefully they'll start a limpfest when you have pocket pairs. If they (or you) are short-stacked it's generally a bad ideea to limp. (remember it's profitable to push from small blind into short-stacked big blind with any pocket pair if only you 2 remain).
      Hope it helps.
    • HasuHasi
      HasuHasi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2005 Posts: 129
      depends on how much BB u have left...

      when u have 24+ BB u can limp and fold to a raise, from 13-24BB i would fold most pockets and try a blind steal with TT+ from early position, and fold it to a reraise from a tight player..

      check the push and fold charts in the SNG section for the lategame to see how to play when u have less than 13 BB left
    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Hi, thank you all for your replies.

      I didnt say it, but i was assuming that all situations we have 24+ BB.


      @alejandrosh: When i will be able to call a bet with PP? When someone raises 3BB and someone call i tend to call with 30+ BB. But if someone raises 5BB and everybody folds, there is no chance of calling here. How do you calculate this implied odds? You know that according to icm, every chip won is worth less than every chip lost?
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      if the size of the (pot+effective stack)/money to call >= 15 (the rule is call 20, but I guess 15 is enough since oponents will stackoff light)
    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      if the size of the (pot+effective stack)/money to call >= 15 (the rule is call 20, but I guess 15 is enough since oponents will stackoff light)
      where did you see this information?


      This situations doesnt look to good to limp:

      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.50+$0.25 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      SB (t1300)
      BB (t1400)
      Hero (UTG) (t1425)
      MP (t1120)
      CO (t1735)
      Button (t3495)

      Hero's M: 19.00

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4, 4
      1 fold, MP calls t50, 3 folds, BB checks

      Flop: (t125) 5, A, 2 (2 players)
      BB checks, MP checks

      Turn: (t125) 9 (2 players)
      BB checks, MP bets t150, 1 fold

      Total pot: t125
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      I should have said to call a raise with pocket pair

      a stack to limp with pocket pair ..... I guess M over 20 , so that is like >30bb
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      Originally posted by andreibalint
      I'm probably not too good to give advice about SnG's but I think it's "safe" to say this: i believe it's more profitable to limp with pocket pairs if you are playing a tournament WHITOUT rebuy or add-on (players will be tighter, or atleast you won't see all in's all the time)
      Not really, since tight --> less implied odds

      In the pokerstars sng's (1500 startstack) I only openlimp on the BB=20 and BB=30 level (assuming I'm still ~fullstacked).
    • hert0g
      hert0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.05.2009 Posts: 6
      i took notice of this problem aswell, and i'm just gonna limp only if:
      1 or more has limped before me (also makes SB more often complete)
      im on late position, "hoping" for them to complete and check, i dont raise here because i'd rather loose 1BB and get reraised than loose 4BB and get called/raised by a better hand/coin flip.

      the pot is going to be very small unless the blinds both call, so i treat it as a speculative hand, hoping for more people to go into the pot, so if i hit its wurth something. also the blinds are likely to raise with hands like 2 overcards (J+T+ could very well happen) and likely to complete/check with hands in your range (2-9) so if they dont raise and you hit it is somewhat likely that one of them have hit something aswell.

      just my 2 cents, pritty new to SnG but i figured this couldnt be a realy bad idea.

      every chip won is worth less than every chip lost? very true..
      think on higher limits i wouldn't be limping much with low pp, unless i realy start getting some better results with it, i think it gave me like ~500 chips once or twice (9player 1500stack, one of the first hands.) and lost more from the limping+getting raised/bad boards.
    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Ok, just let me show another example.

      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      CO (t1500)
      Button (t1440)
      Hero (SB) (t1480)
      BB (t1480)
      UTG (t1500)
      UTG+1 (t1720)
      MP1 (t1440)
      MP2 (t1440)
      MP3 (t1500)

      Hero's M: 49.33

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 3:club: , 3:spade:
      UTG bets t60, 5 folds, Button calls t60, Hero calls t50, 1 fold

      Flop: (t200) 2:heart: , 6:diamond: , 8:diamond: (3 players)
      Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks

      Turn: (t200) A:spade: (3 players)
      Hero checks, UTG bets t40, Button calls t40, Hero folds

      River: (t280) 5:heart: (2 players)
      UTG checks, Button bets t60, 1 fold

      Total pot: t280


      Here we have to pay 50 for a 150 pot. So its 3 to 1. We have more than 24BB so its a good thing to limp here, right?
    • MisterHomes
      MisterHomes
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.09.2008 Posts: 128
      I agree with the statements that limping with a PP < 88 is ineffective when you are < 20 BB. If you are < 10 BB, it should be a push from ALMOST any position, unless you're facing a raise.

      However, let's look at it this way. Your stack is ~ 30BB. A fairly tight player with 35BB raises to 3.5BB in early to middle position, and the button calls. You look down in the SB and see 55. It will cost you an additional 3BB to put into a pot of 8.5BB, so you're just getting a little under 3 to 1 to call. However, the odds of flopping a set are 7.7 to 1 - so it may seem like a bad idea to flat call.

      It is not unreasonable to assume your opponents range is AK, JJ+, so there's a really good chance if you flop your set you're going to bust him. This means you are paying 3BB to potentially win 35BB, and are getting a little less than 12:1 on your money (he will also hit his set roughly 12% of the time). Of course there are other cases where you can win the pot, but I think the kind of implied odds you get in these situations are hard to pass up. I feel it's +$EV as well, because if you win you are a massive stack.
    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      Hero (UTG) (t2500)
      UTG+1 (t1430)
      MP1 (t1150)
      MP2 (t1470)
      MP3 (t1530)
      CO (t2170)
      Button (t1230)
      SB (t1140)
      BB (t880)

      Hero's M: 55.56

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9:club: , 9:heart:
      Hero calls t30, 2 folds, MP2 bets t120, 6 folds

      Total pot: t105

      Another example. Did i played right? Would have been better if i just fold preflop?
    • rhinoneil
      rhinoneil
      Silver
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,159
      I think if you limp in this position with 99, you should call the raise. Blinds are low so its not impacting much on your stack.
      One of the main problems with limping with low pps in particular is that you get very readable. Its then easy for villain to either raise preflop or bet out on the flop knowing that you will fold if you havent made a set.
      I prefer to mix it up, so will sometimes limp, sometimes raise depending on position, levels, image, opposition or sometimes just to change style.
      So for example if I have limped a couple of times I will raise first in from any position with any pp next time.
      Implied odds are only any good if you can count on getting all the money in.
      If villain knows you always limp with pps, he will know when you hit the set and he wont stack off.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      limp folding those nines doesn't make any sence. just call the raise since you and your oponent are deep enough

      rhinoneil is right about this play being very exploitable however not many players will exploit this at the 3 dollar sngs.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      You may play like this: even you don't have chips for Call20, not even Call15 rule, call a raise with PP if there are other callers. But be aware not to be to short (preferably not in push/fold). For example:
      SomeDude has 50BB, SomeOtherDude has 45BB, TheOtherDude has 40BB, You have 15BB. SomeDude min-raises, all the other Dudes call. That means if you call for 2BB which gives you Call7.5 for each player.. In total you get Call22.5. Kind of strange to describe this this way. Although i don't feel to confortable if i get less than Call10 from each player because that means i'm to short.
      Problem is i never asked someone who actually knows what they're doing if this play is right. But i believe that it's actually better than 1 raiser since more cards will hit the board since there will be more players.
    • shteva
      shteva
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.05.2009 Posts: 2
      You wont always win when you hit your set.

      You will sometimes loose to straight, flush, and even to a bigger set, so i am not sure if Call 15 is enough.