[NL20-NL50] nl25 sh AT

    • BloodyB
      BloodyB
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2008 Posts: 1,113
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Graj rękę

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $27.43
      BU:
      $25.00
      SB:
      $29.48
      BB:
      $34.98
      MP2:
      $25.44
      MP3(Hero):
      $25.00

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, T.
      MP2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, CO folds, BU calls $0.85, SB folds, BB calls $0.60.

      Flop: ($2.65) J, 8, T (3 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $1.75, BU folds, BB raises to $4.75, Hero calls $3.00.

      Turn: ($12.15) 9 (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero checks.

      River: ($12.15) 8 (2 players)
      BB bets $5.75, Hero calls $5.75.

      Final Pot: $23.65.


      17/11/28/inf 64hands
  • 8 replies
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      I wouldn't cbet that flop, it hits their ranges pretty hard and it's gonna be a nightmare to play with just a 2nd pair on a board that wet. I may call a from the BU on the flop or the turn if BB folds because being last to act he could be taking a stab with anything, but mostly i don't think it's a hand worth protecting on that board.

      As played once you cbet and get the raise you were expecting, i feel like you have to call once in position, i would play it the same way. Checking behind the turn is fine, and given that you are playing almost a bluff catcher from the beginning, i don't mind calling the 1/2 river bet knowing you're often getting valuetowned.
    • caltabiano
      caltabiano
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      I would always cbet that flop with 2nd pair. Our hand will be good a decent portion of the time. We'll still get value from draws, worse T's, maybe even wsomething like 77. But I'm very rarely not cbetting 2nd pair vs 2 opp.

      Once I get c/r I'm out though. We're flipping at best.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      It's because we usually have the best hand that i don't like to c-bet it, because the playability sucks, we 're gonna get c/r off the best hand so often against 2 taggish players that i can't really see c-betting as a profitable play especially if you fold to the raise. You might as well have air in that spot, and there's a reason we don't cbet air in that situation.
    • caltabiano
      caltabiano
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      You can't simply give up the initiative with a weak 1 pair hand in a sandwich position like that. It's a multiway pot and therefore c-betting means a lot more strength than if it was HU. If we get c/r, we're dead and I'm actually happy that the guy c/r me and didn't get any more money out of me. He made it known to us that we're dead. People won't be c/r multiway pots with bluffs a lot of times.

      On this board, you cannot give away free cards, as it's drawy as hell. You can't refrain from c-betting out of fear of getting c/r.


      I believe it makes a difference when we have air. When we have air, it's more likely out opponents hit the flop, since we don't have blockers. And we don't always beat busted draws when we get to the showdown.

      On a wet board, you must always bet your made hands IMO.
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by caltabiano
      a) You can't simply give up the initiative with a weak 1 pair hand in a sandwich position like that.

      b) It's a multiway pot and therefore c-betting means a lot more strength than if it was HU.

      c) On this board, you cannot give away free cards, as it's drawy as hell. You can't refrain from c-betting out of fear of getting c/r.

      d)I believe it makes a difference when we have air. When we have air, it's more likely out opponents hit the flop, since we don't have blockers. And we don't always beat busted draws when we get to the showdown.

      e) On a wet board, you must always bet your made hands IMO.
      I agree with tamairlarace, i think checking behind the flop is good.

      a) We're not giving up, we're controlling the pot. We have a marginal hand and we expect the opponent to checkraise. Since we don't want to play a big pot with this hand we shouldn't take a line where we either get a fold or a raise.

      b) Exactly. That means if you bet your hand you're effectively bluffing because you plan to give up if you face any action.

      c) Yes you can. As you noticed if the money gets in vs a huge draw you will break even anyway. Same reasons as in a) here.

      d) That is correct, but in this case your T removes just a few combinations of hands of your opponents range. And you won't often see showdowns where the opponent has a busted draw, because most people are aggressive with the kind of draw you expect him to have.

      e) Wrong. For the reason look at a) again.
    • caltabiano
      caltabiano
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      a) Yes, we are giving the initiative. Controlling the pot in this position is really hard. What's the plan here? c/c flop, c/f turn? We can expect BU to bet if checked to with a huge range. What do you do when he bets? And why do you EXPECT to get c/r?

      b) So if you're second barreling TP/TK and get c/r, is this a bluff you just made? Cause you're folding to further action?

      c) I don't plan on getting the money in here. Definitely not. It's an easy b/f for me. But they won't always have draws here, will they? Their ranges are so much wider than that.. any PP, a bunch of GS, strong draws and a bunch of other crap. A huge part of their range will be very pleased to see another card.

      d) I don't EXPECT them to have draws for a start. It's in their range, of course. But their range is bigger. And they'll often have some crappy draws like gutshots. I've seen busted draws on SD so often...

      e) I still think we gotta bet :) I might c/f bottom pair or underpair. But second is a bet for me in this case.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      I don't think any of us will change his mind but i will try and respond anyway, in case forum lurkers are actually interested by the reasoning behind our decisions.


      a)

      I expect to get c/r because first that board hits their ranges very hard, and second they both seem like tags, meaning if they're ever gonna c/r semibluff/purebluff us it's the perfect board to do it on. You may call a bet from BU when BB folds if you want, you were gonna throw a cbet in there anyway so it's not like you'd lose money by taking a c/c line.
      I wouldn't feel that comfortable trying to steal that pot if i was in BU shoes' by the way, chances are either us or BB also has a piece of the board and can at least call a bet.

      b)

      TPTK is worth more than 2PTK for obvious reasons. You can call a raise with TPTK in position if you know your opponent is likely to bluffraise you. It's a lot more speculative to do the same thing with 2PTK, he'd have to be bluffing a lot more.

      c)

      The range of hands that will happily see another card is so huge that you won't like any of these cards in a small pot, and hate them all in an even bigger pot which you created.
      Anything with a pair and/or a gutshot will just call you as your range doesn't hit that board very well, and you won't know what to do on the turn/river. You will likely end up checking and folding to a bet which they will make with a lot of their range again, resulting in you folding the best hand anyway, but after donating a bit more money.
      Other stuff like underpairs likely won't call a c-bet from you into a board that wet because you are representing a lot of strength, at least top pair or an overpair, meaning you're basically making him fold his 2-outers.

      d)

      I expect them to have :

      - stuff that i crush and that will fold to a c-bet, happy me.
      - stuff that i'm ahead of that will not fold to a c-bet but will make me hate my life, either right here on the flop with a raise or when i end up checking on later streets and they fire 100% of their range.
      - stuff that either crushes me or is flipping with me, no need to explain why i'm not giving these hands my money on that board.

      e)

      I'm not betting weak made hands on wet boards, because when they are so weak that i don't expect to ever make it to showdown because i can't stand any heat, they don't really have showdown value.
    • BogdanDin7
      BogdanDin7
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2008 Posts: 1,114
      I would b/f if I was 1st to act. I wouldn`t like to c/c flop knowing I would be OOP after all streets and I would be to easy bluffed out. At least by b/f I have a stab at the pot and after give up.

      However here one player already checked and now if you check , BU will be unlikely make a move without a hand because he doesn`t know ii BB is waiting on a c/r so you can often get a free turn and keep the pot small. If BU bets and BB raise or call I think you can safely fold and not lose any money. And even if BU bets and BB folds I htink you can still take a safe way out and fold .
      So by check flop you might sometimes get free turn , call turn bet from BB - same money invested as a cbet and then get to river while keeping pot small and staying away from triky spots , which you don`t want to play with 2nd pair really.