[NL2-NL10] Nl5 Fr Aa

    • JuiceQuadre
      JuiceQuadre
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 2,688
      Known players:     
      Hero:
      $5,07
      MP3:
      $5,56

      0,02/0,05 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A:heart: , A:club:
      2 folds, MP3 calls $0,05, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0,25, MP3 calls $0,20.

      Flop: ($0,52) 3:spade: , 7:club: , 8:spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0,40, MP3 calls $0,40.

      Turn: ($1,32) 4:spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0,85, MP3 calls $0,85.

      River: ($3,02) T:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1,00, MP3 raises to $4,06 (All-In), Hero calls $2,57 (All-In), MP3 gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $10,16

      Again i wasnt able to fold my aces on the river.. i had like 1:3 and sometimes they want to go all in with top pair.. but i guess raise on the river means im beat :/
  • 10 replies
    • louc
      louc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2007 Posts: 42
      You already answered yourself. (AI) raise on the river is normally very good hand (in the eyes of Villain that is).

      If it helps just think of your aces as a one pair hand. And with one pair hand you can rarely get three streets of value out of Villain (unless she is a calling station or a maniac) so you should at one point slow down. When? That's the mystery. It sure helps to know your Villain.

      So in this hand you played against unknown OOP on a very wet board. That's the worst case scenario. It happens and it sucks. But that's poker, baby :)

      The conclusion is not just fold aces PF they're not worth playing OOP :) Take the note of Villain's holding and hers way of playing it and think about it. And think about something else:

      they want to go all in with top pair
      I agree but you need to put them all in. They will rarely push AI with only TP.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Preflop & Flop: Fine.

      Turn: since there is a potential flash with the third spade I would go for 1/2 pot size bet.

      -If we get raised:

      we can call a small raise and reevaluate the river. I will probably c/c a small bet on the blank river, and fold to a big bet.

      -If we get called:

      Bet small blocker bet/fold. I don't think better hands will raise us here.
    • louc
      louc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2007 Posts: 42
      Can we really value shove on this river?

      Do you suggest that you should think unknown opponent at NL5 is calling station? And that you can get three streets of value out of them all day long?
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      ^^
    • louc
      louc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2007 Posts: 42
      If we want to bet then yes, stick it in. But can we bet for value here? If you are betting for value you don't want to much FE. You want villain to call with lesser hands than yours. But villain needs to be calling station if she is to call you with something you beat here.

      I understand aggression is good but i'm weak tight and i see monsters under the bed so until proven guilty i give villain the benefit of the doubt :O . And if we assume villain will call us only with better hands then he has to fold in about 50% for our almost pot sized AI bet to be +EV. Given the action until river and seeing villain as somewhat competent player i just don't believe that there are 50% of one pair hands in his range. So we need villain to fold some better hands. Can we fold anything out of this competent NL5 player. Even a competent NL5 player will hardly fold set or better. We are looking only for possible two pair folds but there is maybe only T8 in his range (even here i believe he is not capable of folding it as he had just improved). He would probably already raised with 78.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by louc
      If we want to bet then yes, stick it in. But can we bet for value here? If you are betting for value you don't want to much FE. You want villain to call with lesser hands than yours. But villain needs to be calling station if she is to call you with something you beat here.

      I understand aggression is good but i'm weak tight and i see monsters under the bed so until proven guilty i give villain the benefit of the doubt :O . And if we assume villain will call us only with better hands then he has to fold in about 50% for our almost pot sized AI bet to be +EV. Given the action until river and seeing villain as somewhat competent player i just don't believe that there are 50% of one pair hands in his range. So we need villain to fold some better hands. Can we fold anything out of this competent NL5 player. Even a competent NL5 player will hardly fold set or better. We are looking only for possible two pair folds but there is maybe only T8 in his range (even here i believe he is not capable of folding it as he had just improved). He would probably already raised with 78.
      Sorry, I miss read the hand, didn't notice the third spade on the turn.
      Please reread my evaluation.
    • louc
      louc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2007 Posts: 42
      I reread your evaluation.

      But first i'd like to say that i don't like your way of deleting your posts as questions in my posts now seems completely out of contents. Besides being weak tight and seeing monsters under the bed i might also see people that others don't (hint: being slightly schizophrenic) and now i might start thinking that i just saw some posts that actually never were there. Need to see my shrink again i suppose. And it's all my fault as i wasn't careful enough and didn't see the need to quote previous poster.

      Please, don't take it personally as it's just my sense (or lack) of humor. It stopped raining here after quite some while (it seems like it was raining all summer) and if that's not the opportunity to be happy then i know nothing. And when i'm happy i normally joke and talk a lot. But today i'm locked in home and have nobody to talk to (even the cat is outside) except a weird looking man standing in my room who i refuse to even look at as … erm ... i don't believe he is real you know. He reads along now but doesn't find it funny.

      Sorry for this slight off topic and i really mean when i say don't take it personally.

      Originally posted by maya1984
      Preflop & Flop: Fine.

      Turn: since there is a potential flash with the third spade I would go for 1/2 pot size bet.

      -If we get raised:

      we can call a small raise and reevaluate the river. I will probably c/c a small bet on the blank river, and fold to a big bet.

      -If we get called:

      Bet small blocker bet/fold. I don't think better hands will raise us here.
      I don't like betting turn with intention of calling small raise and then reevaluate. This whole reevaluate thing looks to me like an excuse to spew. River is rarely going to help us. Even A might not be good in some cases. We need to decide on turn (in fact we should really know before we raised it up PF) what to do with the hand. I'd say b/f turn c/f river. But there is IMHO better option.

      If it comes to river just write 'damn, misclick' (without quotes, ldo) in chat edit box but don't press enter yet. Click on check and that's crucial send what you wrote just before he tries to make the bet (just don't send it too early as he might become suspicious of your quick writing skills). If he bets, then you need to call his bet no matter what. If he bluffed apologize him for your misclick if he shows a strong hand say something like 'how can you abuse a misclick, damn you'.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by louc
      But first i'd like to say that i don't like your way of deleting your posts as questions in my posts now seems completely out of contents.
      Sorry for that, the post was not relevant to the hand. I deleted it because I didn't want other players read it and mistakenly understand wrong things.

      Originally posted by loucI don't like betting turn with intention of calling small raise and then reevaluate. This whole reevaluate thing looks to me like an excuse to spew. River is rarely going to help us. Even A might not be good in some cases. We need to decide on turn (in fact we should really know before we raised it up PF) what to do with the hand. I'd say b/f turn c/f river. But there is IMHO better option.
      Since we don't have any stats on the villain our decisions are a bit more difficult. If we are playing a passive guy, there isn't really a point in b/c because we will very often be raised by better hands.
      In this case we are playing a unknown so we can't be sure with what he is raising us on the turn. b/f is pretty standard here but sometimes I tend to be stubborn. yes if we call who should know that is probably going to put more pressure on the river and if we can't stand it we might as well just b/f the turn.

      About the river: if he only calls the turn, when you check the river you:
      -losing value from worser hands which might call a small bet
      -inducing a bluff from a busted draw.

      Hope this makes sense to you, if not fell free to ask more questions.
    • louc
      louc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2007 Posts: 42
      Originally posted by maya1984
      Sorry for that, the post was not relevant to the hand. I deleted it because I didn't want other players read it and mistakenly understand wrong things.
      Apology accepted. I can understand your reasons now.

      If we are playing a passive guy, there isn't really a point in b/c because we will very often be raised by better hands. In this case we are playing a unknown so we can't be sure with what he is raising us on the turn. b/f is pretty standard here but sometimes I tend to be stubborn. yes if we call who should know that is probably going to put more pressure on the river and if we can't stand it we might as well just b/f the turn.
      Say we call his turn raise. What should we do on river? I suppose check it 100% and almost always call if he bets. Is it so?


      About the river: if he only calls the turn, when you check the river you:
      -losing value from worser hands which might call a small bet
      -inducing a bluff from a busted draw.
      Which are those worser hands that might call a small bet?
      And if he is capable of bluffing a busted draw if we check then he is also capable of bluffing it if we bet small.

      The problem i have with betting small (especially on river) is that observing players will exploit us easily. Are there any other hands you would small bet on river?

      Say that majority of villain's hands are hands we beat. If you believe he is capable of calling another bet on river then you should bet as much as you estimate he is capable of calling and probably fold to a raise which really sucks given the odds we get. If you believe that villain is not going to call with one pair hands but is capable of betting them if we check then you should go for c/c on river. If you believe villain will not call a bet with one pair hand and will also not bet with them you should go for c/f. You think villain is calling with weaker hands so you should bet as much as you think villain will call and not bet small because board is drawy. I personally believe that villain is going to check one pair hands back, as if he was ever considering a bluff he would probably do it on turn when the scare card arrived. But even getting bluffed out of the hand is not something i'm scared of as sometimes you WILL get bluffed out of the hand. If only it doesn't happen way too often then you're doing nothing wrong. On the other hand, if you're never getting bluffed out of the hand then you're probably calling too much. IMHO playing a big pot OOP against unknown with marginal hand is getting us nothing good in the long run.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      [quote]Originally posted by maya1984
      Originally posted by louc
      Say we call his turn raise. What should we do on river? I suppose check it 100% and almost always call if he bets. Is it so?
      check/call a blank. check/fold a spade

      Which are those worser hands that might call a small bet?
      any OP (he might even call with 99-TT with a spade), Ts,x

      And if he is capable of bluffing a busted draw if we check then he is also capable of bluffing it if we bet small.
      True, but keep in mind that a blocker bet will minimize the number of times that he will bluff.

      The problem i have with betting small (especially on river) is that observing players will exploit us easily.
      I'm really not sure about it. betting big in this spot with the intension of folding to a raise loses you more money.

      Are there any other hands you would small bet on river?
      probably non spade QQ+

      Say that majority of villain's hands are hands we beat.

      If you believe he is capable of calling another bet on river then you should bet as much as you estimate he is capable of calling and probably fold to a raise which really sucks given the odds we get.

      If you believe that villain is not going to call with one pair hands but is capable of betting them if we check then you should go for c/c on river.
      If you believe villain will not call a bet with one pair hand and will also not bet with them you should go for c/f.

      You think villain is calling with weaker hands so you should bet as much as you think villain will call and not bet small because board is drawy.


      If you combine all these scenarios into a scenary of which you know villain is checking behind one pair hands, bet/raising with better hands then ours, and from time to time might bluff with a busted draw -> He blocker bet is a good decision.