[NL20-NL50] NL20 SH KK on a 3bet pot

    • Volrath89
      Volrath89
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,170
      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      Hero (SB) ($20.40)
      BB ($21.88)
      UTG ($23.48)
      Button ($26.21)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
      1 fold, Button bets $0.70, Hero raises $2.30, 1 fold, Button calls $1.70

      Flop: ($5) J, 10, Q (2 players)
      Hero bets $3, Button raises $6, Hero calls $3

      Turn: ($17) 7 (2 players)
      Hero checks, Button bets $12, Hero calls $12 (All-In)

      River: ($41) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

      Total pot: $41

      Villain unknown

      I feel kinda behind on that flop, I think ppl call a lot of medium pocket pairs in 3bet pots, so here I'm behind TT,JJ and lower pairs wont pay me. Also if he just called with QQ or AK, both of them beat me now. So, maybe I shouldn't cbet here as the only reasonable hand that would pay me is 99, and maybe I could induce bluffs or something? Anyway I'm always going broke here with overpair+OESD. (As played I maybe should have just shoved the flop)
  • 5 replies
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Actually the last time i was in that spot (except it wasn't a minraise) i thought about it for a bit and decided to just jam it. Too many ugly turn cards and i'm not folding overpair+OESD when i know nothing about my opponent.

      The guy showed me ATo, so i don't feel that bad going broke in that spot against an unknown anymore, but i do agree that against a tight 3bet calling range from a random tag this is a shit flop.

      Oh wait we have a backdoor royal flush draw, which makes this an easy shove.
    • radyan111
      radyan111
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 1,151
      I'm always going broke with KK on any flop without an ace in a 3 bet pot on this limit. Same here.
    • Volrath89
      Volrath89
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,170
      Hello guys, thanks for your answers. But I wasn't actually asking wether or not to go broke. I know overpair+OESD has more than 30% of equity against a set and as I am not always against a set I think its ok to always go broke here. (I know I didn't play correctly because if I'm calling his shove I better shove myself, but well here it would have been the same result)

      The question was if maybe a check/raise or check/call line on the flop is better in this cases, since as I said I don't think weaker hands would call my cbet (except 99, maybe AQ too) but maybe weaker hands would try to bluff me out and I can extract more value of weaker hands.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      If the guy is good he's not bluffing you on that board i don't think, it hits your range somewhat good and he can't assume you just 3bet with garbage if he doesn't know you (well maybe he should actually but most people don't). So even tho you checked that flop he has to know you're not just c/folding to one bet, and two would commit him.

      If he is bad he's probably calling with any piece and will stack off with worse anyway, but he might check behind if you don't bet. I'm thinking of a hand like KQ which you have crushed, even tho it's kind of unlikely given there are 2 K and 1 Q accounted for. Maybe something like T9 for a pair and an OESD. Bad passive players won't bet worse hands if you check, and bad aggro players might just raise you if you c-bet anyway, just stick it in.


      I guess a faster way of saying all of this is :

      You can exploit unknowns best all around by just c-bet/shoving. Once you know more about them you can adapt and try to exploit them even better.


      Like if the guy is an insane aggro monkey postflop who calls every 3bet preflop then sure, check to him and let him bluff off all his stack with his 54o. Till you know that, stay with the basic stuff imo.
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      I think bet/3betting the flop is better than c/c or c/r since i expect many players on this limit making the mistake to calling 3bets too light, like with small PPs and SCs.
      So you have foldequity and you can get it in vs worse hands like FDs - but these draws are likely to check behind, which you don't want.
      So bet the flop and after any kind of raise shove it, as you said even vs strong ranges you've got >30% EQ oftentimes.
      Btw i don't think the average $20NL player would bet his air if you check to him in this spot.