[NL20-NL50] NL20 SH AQ on a 3bet pot.

    • Volrath89
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,165
      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      Button ($56.33)
      Hero (SB) ($19.80)
      BB ($20)
      UTG ($21.94)
      MP ($18.90)
      CO ($43.66)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, A
      2 folds, CO bets $0.70, 1 fold, Hero raises $2.30, 1 fold, CO calls $1.70

      Flop: ($5) 7, 9, A (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.50, CO calls $2.50

      Turn: ($10) 7 (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO checks

      River: ($10) 2 (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.50, CO raises $7.80, Hero calls $5.30

      Total pot: $25.60

      Villain stats:

      Flop: I usually cbet only half pot on 3bet pots (no matter if I hit or not), since I think most ppl call 3bets with pairs and if they don't improve they will fold any bet size. Is this ok?

      Turn: I check here for pot control, is this ok or a 2nd barrel would be better?

      River: I blockbet, he minraises and I call :P . Now I think this makes no sense, maybe it was better to just play bet/fold, or c/call?
  • 4 replies
    • MaestroOfZerg
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      I'm 3betting a bit bigger preflop, like $2,6 or something.

      I like to c-bet bigger then halfpot with everything, even in 3bet pots, especially against tags. When you bet smallish you will often induce floats and bluff-raises, which isn't really a problem unless you don't know how to deal with them, in which case it makes your life hell. So unless you want to induce that action on purpose, which could be the case here, beware.

      On the turn it depends what you think he's calling you with, you hit TPTK on the flop, which is exactly what you wanted when you 3bet AQ preflop, so you're not folding it without a damn good reason. Banish pot control from your mind, because if that guy wants to he can still get your stack in by the river easily while giving you odds you can't fold with. The only question is how to get the most value out of his calling range.

      - If he also has an ace he's not folding it to a turn barrel. He might fold to a 3rd bet on the river but given the odds he will get that's doubtful. He might gladly accept a cheap showdown if we check tho, which we don't want. We want to bet.
      - If he has a random pocket pair and doesn't buy your small c-bet, he probably won't call another bet because that would commit him, and he probably won't bet either if you check to him and take the showdown. It doesn't matter.
      - If he made a light call preflop and had some kind of suited connector, for him to call on the flop he likely has some draw he was floating with, and will likely bet that turn when we check to him. We want to check.
      - If he was lucky enough to hit a set you're getting stacked anyway, no way around that. It doesn't matter.

      Basically, can he call preflop with worse aces and speculative stuff, and if the answer is yes, how often does he have Ax and how often does have floats?

      The more Ax he has, the more we just wanna bet both the turn and the river. The more floats he has, the more we want to check to him to let him bluff into us. Making a healthy c-bet on the flop helps to answer that question. If you're not sure i think your line is fine, most tags have outgrown the need to flat 3bet with dominated hands, so he can bet his air on the turn and if he doesn't, we can still get one street of value from worse Ax by betting the river, sort of a middle ground.

      On the river, we are valuebetting, as i expect him to bet the turn with both air and stronger hands sometimes. I would bet at least half pot there to get looked up by Ax or whatever hand he felt suspicious with on the flop.

      As played you get raised. I find it hard to believe he would do that with air, simply betting the turn when you checked to him would have been better to take the pot down, he can't expect you to fold anything on that river that you wouldn't have folded on the turn. Another possibility is that he had given up on the turn but your blockbet made him think he could take you off a small Ax that you are valuebetting. Again bigger bets help to avoid those situations when you're not sure what to do with them.

      If it's for value, either he has 22, or he's putting you exactly on what you have and figured you would valuebet or take another stab on the river, so he checked behind the turn with a huge hand to value raise you small as a de-leveraging play.

      Anyway given the odds and the weird line which could be due to your bet sizing, we're paying him off and making a note.
    • Volrath89
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,165
      Hello tamairlarace, first of all thanks for your responses, they've been really helpful :)

      I like to c-bet bigger then halfpot with everything, even in 3bet pots, especially against tags. When you bet smallish you will often induce floats and bluff-raises

      Well, here I disagree. I've found than on this limit there are TAGs somewhat competent who know basic stuff and don't suck that much. BUT, they all play 3bet pots really weird, for example just flat-calling the 3bet is a bad play, isn't it? I always 4bet or fold when I get 3bet, I'm not getting enough implied odds to call pocket pairs and don't know where I stand with potentially dominated Ax hands, Kx hands, etc.

      So well, here I consider if this TAG just called preflop he is either trying to trap me with a monster sometimes, but most likely he calls with pocket pairs or with dominated hands. So if we consider that his play is not optimal preflop and than this is only NL20 I think a bluff raise or a float on a 3bet pot is very expensive and very unlikely to see. This is why I'm often doing half pot cbets, and this is actually the first time a villain calls, they always had raised or folded before.

      I've found villains to be flat calling too much my 3bets that's why I was doing this, it was annoying to have AK, AQ unimproved raised many times even with healthy cbets, and if this is a standard move of my part I still remain unreadable I think. But yeah maybe its better to make my cbets closer to 2/3 than to 1/2 in the future althought for me its more to extract value from dominated hands than to avoid bluff raises or floats.

      On the turn it depends what you think he's calling you with, you hit TPTK on the flop, which is exactly what you wanted when you 3bet AQ preflop, so you're not folding it without a damn good reason.

      Yeah well, there's still AK and as I said earlier they play 3bet pots very weird. But you are right about pot-control here, I am not folding my AQ and now I think the best line was just bet/bet/bet, if he had AK nh, noted down.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Well if they were playing optimally i would agree with you, but most of them aren't. Sometimes they will say "hey, it's a steal situation, he 3bet me smallish, so i have somewhat better odds than usual, i'm gonna call with 55 to show him he can't just resteal on me all the time".

      Then he gets to the flop, and sees you're making a halfpot c-bet, which you would do with all your air on that board, so he gets a nice price again to call and see what happens. When you don't bet the turn he decides that his 55 are probably good and goes for the showdown.

      Then you blockbet the river and he has to conclude his 55 are no good but you don't have a great hand, and his mind goes "sweet, i'm told nobody ever bluff raises a river at these stakes and that guy looked weak all the way, this is my chance, i'm the man !".

      Or something along those lines, it happens, heck i do it sometimes. It's fine if you can adapt your play to take advantage of this, but i assure you more often then not for made hands your bet sizing is less important than the number of bets. Most people are still thinking well i have a bad Ax, i can stand 2 barrels maybe but not 3, and by betting small you just let them get away with both cheaper bluffs and cheaper showdowns.
    • Kaitz20
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I think you can bet a little more on the flop.
      I´d double barrel there, because he can hold too many times draws or worse Ax hands
      bet/call river is fine