[NL2-NL10] NL 50 FR A,Ts limping in

    • Tim64
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Known players:

      0.25/0.5 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is CO with A:spade: , T:spade:
      UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, BU calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, BB checks.

      Flop: ($3.00) 3:heart: , 2:spade: , Q:spade: (6 players)
      SB checks, BB checks, UTG2 checks, MP3 bets $2.50, Hero raises to $8.00 (All-In), 4 folds, MP3 calls $5.50.

      Turn: ($19.00) 6:heart:
      River: ($19.00) J:spade: (1 players)

      Final Pot: $19.00

      Two questions:

      1. My SSS bronze chart tells me to call with suited Aces only when I have 4 other limpers. In this hand I have only 2 limpers before me, so I should not limp in. However, after I've limped, 2 more players limp in and it's clear that the more players limp, the more players behind them will be tempted to limp. So, can we ever treat limpers in the same way as implied odds, namely: by limping ourselves (but obv not openlimping) we increase the likelihood of generating the necessary number of limpers to make our call +EV?

      2. Is it a bad idea to play strong draws in this manner? The advantages are that we sometimes have FE and if we get called and hit our draw we get paid properly for it; the disadvantage is that we lose a lot if: a) we get called and b) we don't make our flush or pair our Ace. But it seems to me that there's no other way to play such draws when villain makes a potsize or near potsize bet on the flop. We don't get the odds to call for just one street and if we do just call and hit our draw on the Turn, villain is much less likely to pay us off, since it's more obvious we're drawing. Consequently, if we can't play these draws aggressively then I'm wondering when it's ever +EV to limp with Axs?

      Thoughts, please?
  • 4 replies
    • DaPhunk
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      I raise this hand here preflop. I don't limp. ATs is good enough to ISOraise two loose limpers like these guys.
    • Tim64
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      I did consider that; not sure why chose to limp instead - can you do Iso raises against 2 opponents, then? For some reason I thought it was only one...

      Any thoughts about the other points raised, as played?

    • dandycal
      Joined: 10.10.2008 Posts: 1,711
      Hi Tim,

      I also raise ATs pre-flop here. Opponets look very fishy and players behind you are not very aggressive so it's agood opportunity to isolate the bad players.

      1 - Yes, the more limpers, the better the pot odds so that the other players should be more inclined to join the party. You shold always check the stats of player still to act, if they tend to be aggressive they might often raise rather than limp, especially when they see players limping from late position, which shows weakness. Personally, I don't like limping with Ax much, I prefer raising (either as a steal or as an isolation raise).

      2 - In the first post of Xarry's coaching blog you'll find a review for a very similar situation. Limped pot with Axs and about 12 outs. The 3 possible lines are: check/raise (he was oop), bet/push and check/call. The latter is the worst because it creates no FE, even though itl is posible due to outs/odds but if you miss the turn you're usually dead. Between the two remaining possibilities check/raise is the best one because it gives more FE and you can count all your 12 outs till the river. In your case it's an even easier decision, it's either push or fold. I go for the push here, I think you can count with about 12 outs (nuts FD + 2 backdoors + at least 1 out for the A) and you can surely get some FE.

      PS.: I also suggest a reading of "how to play strong draws" =D
    • burek2000
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hey Tim 64,

      raising ATs against those 2 fish preflop is the best thing to do, because it's way to strong to play it passively. So, I would raise 6bb preflop.

      As played, I agree with dandycal's reasons and would go for the c/push line. Well played on the flop.