[NL20-NL50] NL10 SH: ATs river bluff

    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Hand abspielen

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (4 handed)

      Known players:
      BB:
      $10.00
      CO:
      $18.20
      BU(Hero):
      $10.00
      SB:
      $18.45

      Preflop: Hero is BU with T, A.
      CO raises to $0.4, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds.

      Flop: ($0.95) Q, 7, 6 (2 players)
      CO bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70.

      Turn: ($2.35) T (2 players)
      CO bets $1.90, Hero calls $1.90.

      River: ($6.15) 6 (2 players)
      CO bets $1.50, Hero raises to $7(All-In)

      I advancing people to play by the book in the micro-stakes. I remind them that Our opponents are usually bad players. They can't fold a hand which means that usually we have very low FE and this means that bluffing usually doesn't work well.

      As you see my words are in one place and my actions are somewhere else... :)

      Any way this hand was played against unknown (which appeared to be a LAG later on)
      which was a good reason not to try a bluff at the first place.

      The flop is nice giving me the nutt FD, I could semi-bluff and raise here but decided to mixed my lines and just flat call (I also didn't think I have FE, he isn't folding a PP that fast)

      Turn gives me a pair to go with my FD. It's probably the place to raise, on the other hand I don't see FE, he is showing strngth with near pot size bet. On this point I put him on AQ,QQ+ (TT are not likely since I have a Ten but we need to count it too)

      The river brings the big question. Do I have FE against this range when he bet a small blocker 1/4 pot bet. This is where I realized that my line is perfect the represent a FH.

      All comments are welcome.
  • 5 replies
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Random thoughts


      I can't see you raising neither the flop nor the turn with a set, so i wouldn't say you're quite representing a FH. You're representing a bad player slowplaying a FH maybe ? :p



      Also when you say you're mixing it up with your lines i hope you're doing that to experiment, and not to deceive an unknown by changing your lines :D



      The main reason why we don't bluff-raise the river at low stakes is because people call to much, but there are other reasons that are true at all stakes.

      People often get better odds to call on the river when stacks go in.
      You deleveraged your bluff by doing it on the last street.


      Let me explain :

      - You're giving him like 2.7:1 odds on a call, so most people's response with whatever hand they have will be "i don't have to be good often, i'm calling."

      - When you raise on the river, people know that this is it, this is the last decision, if they call they see the showdown immediately, there are no further bets to face. You lost leverage by doing it on the last street. This is somewhat less of a factor when your raise is a shove since that means putting all the money in no matter the street, but keep it in mind.



      Preference thing, i'm 3betting that preflop, not that strong a hand that i'm unhappy folding it to a 4bet, if we get called it's still playable, and if we just flat preflop and miss we're gonna have to fold again, and if we hit and he doesn't have anything we get one c-bet, and if we hit an A75 flop and he bets more then once we are back to our AJo hand again except this time he could also beat us with 75o for 2 pairs. Plus it helps me build an aggressive image while we're playing very short handed.
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      There is also the principle of not getting money in dead, eg, bluffing into something that cant fold, with no cards to come to beat it.

      The place to attack this pot was the the turn, representing a slowplayed 3 of a kind. By shoving the river you represent a busted flush draw. On the turn you held 14 outs to crack a queen or any 2 pair, 8 outs to crack a set. At least then the money isnt going in completely nutted.

      Unless you have a really, really, really loose image no one is going to believe the last 6 helped you.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      bad players usually won´t fold there Qx+ hand
      I would raise flop, to fold out better Ax hands and likely he would bet/fold there a lot of times with lower hands than Qx.
      as played: just call river. you get quite good odds and don´t have to be ahead too many times
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by tamairlarace
      I can't see you raising neither the flop nor the turn with a set, so i wouldn't say you're quite representing a FH. You're representing a bad player slowplaying a FH maybe ? :p
      I didn't quite understand... :)
      I guess you meant that I would probably will raise the flop with a set. A line of call/call/raise will be a line of a bad player slowplaying a set.



      Also when you say you're mixing it up with your lines i hope you're doing that to experiment, and not to deceive an unknown by changing your lines :D
      Come on... I'm not that :f_grin:


      The main reason why we don't bluff-raise the river at low stakes is because people call to much, but there are other reasons that are true at all stakes.
      True, I mentioned it too at the beginning of my post. If wouldn't erased my db I would have made statistics on how often my bluffed worked to prove that bluffing is EV- in NL10.

      People often get better odds to call on the river when stacks go in.
      You deleveraged your bluff by doing it on the last street.

      Let me explain :

      - You're giving him like 2.7:1 odds on a call, so most people's response with whatever hand they have will be "i don't have to be good often, i'm calling."

      - When you raise on the river, people know that this is it, this is the last decision, if they call they see the showdown immediately, there are no further bets to face. You lost leverage by doing it on the last street. This is somewhat less of a factor when your raise is a shove since that means putting all the money in no matter the street, but keep it in mind.
      I agree, I will take this in mind.


      Preference thing, i'm 3betting that preflop, not that strong a hand that i'm unhappy folding it to a 4bet, if we get called it's still playable, and if we just flat preflop and miss we're gonna have to fold again, and if we hit and he doesn't have anything we get one c-bet, and if we hit an A75 flop and he bets more then once we are back to our AJo hand again except this time he could also beat us with 75o for 2 pairs. Plus it helps me build an aggressive image while we're playing very short handed.
      I understand your reasons to 3bet pf but on the other hand a 3bet pf very often will be a bluff because his 3bet calling usually dominates AT.
      Yea if we 3bet and he calls and then he misses the flop we sometimes can take the pot with a cbet but then again we sometimes need 2 or even 3 barrels to get him lay down the best hand which is usually unprofitable in NL10 for the same reasons a river bluff is unprofitable.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      I think you got everything right.

      As for the 3bet preflop, we indeed isolate ourselves against better aces, which means we won't have a problem getting ride of the hand or pot controlling in position if we flop an A and villain doesn't go away. Plus people usually dump AJ- and 4bet AK, so really we only see a flop with AQ.

      I'm not planning on barreling him off a better hand, and i think he folds either preflop or on the flop enough to the point where we're making money no matter what our hand is, just takes some getting used to to make you sure you don't marry yourself to your TPGK postflop when encountering resistance. You will still win pots with it at showdown when called on the flop too, by hands that don't believe you or are drawing.

      Maybe it sucks for nl10, i don't play those stakes anymore, if people fire 3 barrels with any top pair postflop then just calling all the way with TPGK is fine i guess, but most tags have probably outgrown that. And i'm a 3bet monkey in position :=p