[NL2-NL10] Rebouy or not?

    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      I am pretty confident I know the correct answer, but since a lot of smart***** started talking trash at me at another thread, I am gonna ask here.

      If I know how to readjust my open raising ranges, is it more profitable to NOT rebuy when my stack becomes smaller than 15BB even smaller than 10BBs?
  • 17 replies
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hi ,

      Adjusting your openingranges involves a couple of % extra on EP/MP/LP, if you slink your stack to 12-10bb, I pretty much prefer to shove directly

      A smaller stack is easier to play but since you have a smaller stack, your profits decreases

      Also your 3bets are getting called more often due less FE
      Personally I rebuy if I am around 15bb~

      - Gerv
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      Then why does the "Shortstack-Strategy: Sklansky-Chubukov numbers and preflop pushes" article say:

      "A lot of shortstack players would never push preflop directly. They rebuy when their stack nears 10BB and always make standard raises. Playing like this will have a positive expected value, but doesn't utilize the full strengths of a shortstack."

      I personally understand this statement that the lower your stack becomes, the more +EV spots show up, so not rebuying actually improves the profits.

      It's been 20k hands since I stopped rebuying unless I get to <5BB, basicaly, when <10BB I play push/fold, >10BB I still raise normall, pushing only if I have to raise for more than 1/2 of my stack. My push/fold strategy for <10BB starts at A9s ATo 77 at UTG and goes looser in late, and it's based on a chart I found on 2p2 and it is almost the same if I'd take SC chart and divide the BBs required for profitable push at SB by the # of players behind me, to find what hands can be pushed profitably at other positions, about profitable pushes when shortstacked in cash games.



      The reason I think I have a pretty decent FE when for an example I push at MP2 for 7BBs is that big stacks will not call with hands like KJo because they are arfaid of getting into raised pots with marginal hands against other callers, and at the same time they can't really call with SCs or other speculative hands, because if no1 else calls, they are most likely underdog in the allin against me.
    • rickydaprince
      rickydaprince
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      Joined: 20.12.2008 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Hi ,

      Adjusting your openingranges involves a couple of % extra on EP/MP/LP, if you slink your stack to 12-10bb, I pretty much prefer to shove directly

      A smaller stack is easier to play but since you have a smaller stack, your profits decreases

      Also your 3bets are getting called more often due less FE
      Personally I rebuy if I am around 15bb~

      - Gerv
      Thanks Gerv for proving my point. This whateverdude guy just doesn't get it. I quote: "With 5-10BB stack I just shove preflop, so FE of open raising is actually maximizied", and: "I am pretty sure shoving AQs UTG with <10BB is profitable. " - whateverdude
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      3bets have less FE, OBVIUSLY, but openraising has more FE, because villains can only call and not light3bet, also if you think shoving AQs UTG with less than 10BBs is not profitable, you should change the game.
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      And rickydaprince, do you know what? I may be wrong here. I am still not convinced, but I may be wrong. Or I may be right, but my ranges may be wrong.
      BUT in the long run my attitude of always doubting and trying to understand instead of blindly following the information I am given from articles and videos is going to get me much farther in poker than you will ever get.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Openraising certainly does NOT have more FE. It is well known that a shortstack openshoves with a HUGE range.

      The most annoying thing though, is that if you double up with a <10BB stack you are STILL playing with a reduced stack lol.

      Personally I rebuy at 12 or 12.5BB to 17.5BB stacks.
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      BUT the big stack isnt playing only against us. Like if we shove with 7BBs, and villain is at MP he has to think of 4-6 more players behind him. He can't call with low suited connectors or 1 gappers cause his equity would suck against our range, but he can't call with marginal hands like KJ either, because if some1 else calls he will have to play OOP in a raised pot.
      Yes, in late position our shoves may have pathetic FE, but I really totally miserably fail to understand how a 7BB shove from UTG does not have better FE than raising 4BBs with a 20BB stack.
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      ALRIGHT, I just spent 2 hours working with the Equilator cause of all the negative responses I got. I quickly found out that indeed at somewhere around 8BB it's definately time to rebuy. So I worked with ranges to push with 8-12BBs stack. It turned out that at pretty much every position my pushes had almost the same EV: +1BB and my vpip/pfr with this push/fold strategy will be ~20. So in 100 hands I'd play 20 and make 20BBs in the 20 hands I play, and lose 17,5BBs from blinds = 2,5BBs/100hands winrate.
      Then I remembered in the same article I took the:

      "A lot of shortstack players would never push preflop directly. They rebuy when their stack nears 10BB and always make standard raises. Playing like this will have a positive expected value, but doesn't utilize the full strengths of a shortstack. "

      quote, a few lines later they said:

      "To maximize the advantage of preflop pushes, we advice to stop rebuying on the higher limits. Opportunities to push will thereby come across more often. Another advantage is, that when you double up your 10BB stack, you dont have to change tables. "


      So my conclusion from all this is that not rebuying and playing push/fold with 8-12BB stack becomes profitable at the moment I get to stakes where my winrate is lower than 2,5BB/100h, and that is why the article advised not rebuying at HIGHER limits.

      It actually makes perfect sense. Against bad players I'd rather have min 15BB stack to maximise my winnings from their mistakes. Against good players it is a good idea to fall as low as 8BB in order to be able to play an UNEXPLOITABLE push/fold strategy.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Most difference is made by play in Late Position if you are openshoving. If you openshove early hands that are strong enough against your range are still strong enough to play OOP against other Big Stacks.

      It is my view that most Shortstacks shove too widely with reduced stacks (including myself), so if you manage to restrict yourself to only shoving the given range it likely be a profitable but variance rich technique. Depending on the villains ability to adapt it will of course change how profitable it is.

      Xylere made a Video where he briefly touched on this. He shows some charts he experimented with playing with a reduced stack. I think it might be a Gold Video on NL100 SSS.
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      wait this interests me greatly

      i have the auto top up option on full tilt and i leave the table when i double up to make up for lost blinds etc etc

      why is it a wrong thing to do?
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by whateverdude
      pushes had almost the same EV: +1BB
      If you substracted the rake already, this profit is high variance and marginaaaal opposed to an openRaise, cBet/blufinduce and all other Adv. Tools

      If you didnt substracted the rake, I prefer rebuying then because some spots gives u more BB in EV per hand

      - Gerv
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      Originally posted by excelgeo
      wait this interests me greatly

      i have the auto top up option on full tilt and i leave the table when i double up to make up for lost blinds etc etc

      why is it a wrong thing to do?
      It is not a wrong thing to do. Playing with 15-25BBs makes maximal profits using the SSS when playing with opponents you have a clear edge against, which is the case in low stakes.
      If you do not rebuy, but play push/fold mode when having <12 BBs you will have much lower winrate. My rough calculations estimated that while playing with a <12BB stack and doing push/fold you will have ~2,5BB/100 winrate, which is much lower than what you can make at low stakes, but is decent or at medium stakes.
      Since I am not 100% confident in my calculations, I am going to round it down and say that from my observations, not rebuying and playing push/fold mode with 8-12BBs stack is the more profitable thing to do, ONLY if your average winrate is lower than 2BBs/100hands. As long as you are beating the limit you are playing at with more than 2BBs/100hands, you will be better off rebuying when your stack nears 10BBs.
      Now add the fact that while playing like this there is 0 learning effect, and if you are not beating the stakes you are playing at, you may prefer to rebuy and work on your skill in order to start beating the limit with more than 2,5BB/100h


      Originally posted by DaPhunk

      It is my view that most Shortstacks shove too widely with reduced stacks (including myself), so if you manage to restrict yourself to only shoving the given range it likely be a profitable but variance rich technique. Depending on the villains ability to adapt it will of course change how profitable it is.

      Xylere made a Video where he briefly touched on this. He shows some charts he experimented with playing with a reduced stack. I think it might be a Gold Video on NL100 SSS.
      Heh, when I've made the charts myself, I'd rather kill myself than not follow my own charts :f_biggrin:
      My ranges start with 88+,ATs+,AJo+ at UTG(9persontable), but go really loose in later position, at MP3 I am already shoving T9s, and on the SB I'm shoving 50% of the hands !
      I remember I've watched this video pretty long ago, and back then I wasn't interested in those charts at all, I am going to watch it again right now.


      Gerv, I subtracted the rake. I agree, this technique is indeed really high variance, and not very spectacular winrate, it could be profitable to do only when playing on stakes where Hero is a small winner.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Could you give me a concrete stake/limit where Hero is a small winner?
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      Well, at NL10 and NL25 I am going at 5BB/100, I really doubt I will have the same winrate at NL200 or NL400. Still, I can't give a concrete stake/limit, its different for every1. The term "small winner" itself is very vague, and whatever winrate we call "small winner", it is individual when your winrate will become lower than what we call "small winner".

      Since I said that I following my push/fold ranges with 8-12BB makes ~2BB/100(I know in my earlier post I said its 2,5 and not 2, but my calculations can't be 100% correct, so it is definately better to be on the safe side with this estimation, by rounding the number down to 2), we can say that I call winrate of <2BB/100hands "small winner" and that is when not rebuying and doing push fold becomes more profitable than rebuying.

      And as I said, one could very likely prefer to still rebuy and work on his game, instead of doing this push/fold, which may improve hero's CURRENT winrate by something like 0,5BB/100, but while playing push/fold Hero does not play the usual SSS anymore and thus isn't improving.
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
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      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      whateverdude, can you please post the link to the 2+2 pushing chart.
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
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      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/nl-holdem-short-stack-push-fold-tables-405600/


      I dont follow that chart tho, I used a combination of several sources to make a chart of my own, and I still doubit it, cause xylere's chart is much tigher.
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
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      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      hi
      i know this 2+2 chart. & yeah, it's too loose.
      i made one with Nash SNG ranges which is tighter but i am not sure if its correct.

      should we compare our charts maybe?
      would be interesting... rebuy sucks :)