[NL20-NL50] NL25 SH Bottom set dry board

    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      Hero (SB) ($46.20)
      BB ($26.16)
      UTG ($17.78)
      MP ($43.39)
      CO ($24.37)
      Button ($11.07)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 4, 4
      UTG bets $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, Button calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

      Flop: ($3.75) 7, 4, 10 (5 players)
      Hero bets $2.25, 1 fold, UTG raises to $7.75, CO raises to $17, 1 fold, Hero raises to $45.45 (All-In), UTG calls $9.28 (All-In), CO calls $6.62 (All-In)

      Turn: ($68.02) 6 (3 players, 3 all-in)

      River: ($68.02) 3 (3 players, 3 all-in)

      Total pot: $68.02 | Rake: $3
      ___________________________________
      UTG was a fish. CO was 20/15/1 over 150 hands.
  • 5 replies
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      I would probably go for c/r but CO's reraise will get me thinking here. What hands he can reraise with? I don't see much expect from better set. I'm might be too nitty but I think I'm folding.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      Donking into the fish is fine, the flop is somewhat drawy and it will help build a big pot by yourself if he is on the passive side.

      We are not concerned about UTG at all, we are never folding against him, as his most likely hand is an overpair when he raises our donkbet.

      CO on the other hand seems to be a standard tag. The real question is, do we expect him to 3bet TT+ for value preflop against a fish ? For the overwhelming majority of the tags out there, the answer is yes. That guy seems a bit on the passive side given his AF tho, so maybe taking a look at his 3bet% to make sure it's not 0% would help ascertain how he plays his premium hands preflop. If the fish folds to every 3bet, that would be another reason for CO to just flat KK+ preflop.

      Barring those reads, you have to assume his range is mostly suited connectors and small to medium pocket pairs that play good in big multi-way pots. So when he 3bet UTG's raise on the flop after you donked, the only hand he is representing in my mind is 77, as he wouldn't do that with 98s because he can't expect to have any fold equity against UTG.

      Some would argue that since he's only representing one hand you can't just fold here. Try and think about how CO played with the fish before. If you think it's even remotely possible that CO sometimes has KK+ there then you have to call.If you don't, I think this is one of the rare situations where you can muck bottom set with some confidence.

      If it turns out they both had an overpair or CO had 98 for a straight draw, make a note on CO's play and try to understand why he played it that way to better deal with him in the future.


      Hope it helps.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      tamairlarace,
      Can we really take TT from CO's range? I do remind you that the fish open raised from UTG. I think that knowing how tight (or loose) the fish his will help us here.
      If the fish is playing tight I think that it's more then reanoable that CO cold call TT for set value.
      I think that 89s is out of the questions from the reason you mentioned.

      Is is possible CO to played this with KK+? like you said, 3bet pf% and previous hands played between him and fish can help. CO's history with hero can help too.
      What's going on in CO's head if he does have a set? He probably put both hero and the fish on OP so he don't want to see any face cards/ace on the further streets. So he shoves.
      Like you said tamairlarace this is a rare situation where hero can muck bottom set with some confidence.

      Any thoughts?
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      Originally posted by maya1984
      tamairlarace,
      Can we really take TT from CO's range? I do remind you that the fish open raised from UTG. I think that knowing how tight (or loose) the fish his will help us here.
      If the fish is playing tight I think that it's more then reanoable that CO cold call TT for set value.
      I think that 89s is out of the questions from the reason you mentioned.
      Sure, i was just answering with what little information i had available and trying to give you the reasons that you should look for if you happen to have more information yourself in the same kind of hand.

      If it turns out the fish is an aggro monkey playing 67/54, i never ever expect CO not to raise TT+. On the flip side, if he is a 20/1 or folds to 100% of 3bets i expect CO to get tricky with big pairs not to blow the fish out of the pot.

      I recently played a hand with a fish playing something like 15/0 that litterally wasted his entire time bank before calling my shove with KK, typing in the chat stuff like "man i should fold i'm sure he has AA" (he ended up sucking out on me with KK, left in a hurry right after that hand and lived happily ever after, or so i think ;) ) You do not want to scare those guys away, some are capable of making insanely tight folds.

      Originally posted by maya1984
      Is is possible CO to played this with KK+? like you said, 3bet pf% and previous hands played between him and fish can help. CO's history with hero can help too.
      What's going on in CO's head if he does have a set? He probably put both hero and the fish on OP so he don't want to see any face cards/ace on the further streets. So he shoves.
      Honestly i think the only thing that goes through CO's mind at that point is "yay the fish is never folding let's get the money in !".

      Seriously tho, if he has 77 or TT the only things he's worried about would be

      - possibly Hero having overcalled with 98s preflop and decided to lead the flop with it, meaning if CO just flats UTG's raise he might give great odds to an OESD.

      - a scare card coming for the fish on the turn, like an A if the fish has KK. It doesn't make sense for CO to have an A, but the fish won't understand that, so he might not be that eager to get the rest of his stack in with KK when that happens.


      Hope it helps.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Fish was 27/26/8 maybe sounds more like LAG but he played very poorly postflop with the trash that he was raising, basically donating money. CO had 3bet% of 1.8 and all that was from BB so i wouldn't be surprised that he'd flat TT, JJ here since he's pretty passive. Anyway, UTG stacked off with T9s and CO shown 77. I thought that i'm behind but couldn't help myself and get away from stacking off here. :) Thanks for replies, helps alot. :)