calling 3bets pf

    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      now i get it. gerv explained it too me a while ago so i dunno why it took me so long to understand how to put it to use.

      basically i just give my opponent the 3bet range that i would give myself in the situation which is generous most often at nl25.

      E.G:

      i hold JJ utg.
      so i raise 1$, 7 fold, BB pushes 5$.

      now if i was bb in this case i would only reraise a guy like myself in this spot with jj+ ak+.

      so i calc my equity against this range and it is 37%

      not i calc my pot odds and they are 40%

      so in this case i would have to fold.

      i know this is very basic but i am not good at math so could someone experienced please tell me if i have understood this correctly?
  • 14 replies
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Wrong... BB in this case has a huge range to push since he is shortstack.

      Don't focus on math that much (down to the exact %), you do not have the time while multi-tabling.

      I would snap call in the described case.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      interesting, i dont agree however. if he is intelligent he would see that i am a sss player raising from utg and take that into consideration.

      is it because of the low limit you think that he would 3bet so loose?
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      The standard all-in conditions after a reraise are as follows:

      Stack-Size : Size of the Raise

      All-In with.. 5:1 or higher

      JJ+,AKo/s


      4.9:1 to 1.9:1

      TT+,AQo/s+


      2:1 or lower

      77+,AJo/s+,KQo/s


      i suppose according to this chart you are correct and we should indeed snap call.

      unless we have identified the opponent as a real sss player in which case he should only have aa or kk if he is playing according to strategy
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Stats! But I'm inclined to agree this guy plays SSS so i fold with bad pot odds.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by raun
      interesting, i dont agree however. if he is intelligent he would see that i am a sss player raising from utg and take that into consideration.

      is it because of the low limit you think that he would 3bet so loose?
      You never said you were SSS in your original post... ugh SSS math is too confusing to me.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      @daphunk
      villain is unknown in this case. but lets just say he has 12vpip/12pfr/ - 300 hands

      according to the "my little equity chart" in your blog you would need qq+ or AKs to call.

      say you made the same raise from mp2. and exactly then same thing happened except BB is now a bigstack, (doesn't really matter cause in a heads up vs a shortstack we are effectively both shortstacks), does it change anything?
      because my own range is a little wider from mp2 i would call his 3bet with jj+ and ak+ because that is the range with which i would 3 bet myself.

      and if i was CO and the exact thing happened i would call a 3bet with 99+ aj+ because this is the standard 3bet range in this situation.

      so basically my push vs 3bet chart is something like:
      ep: qq+ aks
      mp: jj+ako,aks
      lp: 99+aj+


      but should i rather call with hands that beat these ranges and not just hands that are in this range?

      should i look at a person's 3bet stat to make exceptions? or will his vpip/pfr tell me enough ?
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      Hi,

      If you assume that he is playing SSS then yes, a fold would be correct in this situation :P

      -Jack
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      Originally posted by kingdippy2008
      Hi,

      If you assume that he is playing SSS then yes, a fold would be correct in this situation :P

      -Jack
      so lets say that he is an unknown big stack instead. would you call then?
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Hello mate, you need to know his 3bet % It needs to be 5% or higher for you to call profitably. I find at NL200 an average 3bet range is about 5% but at low stakes im not so sure you get 3 bet too often so if he is an unknown I fold only calling QQ+
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      Originally posted by lennonac
      Hello mate, you need to know his 3bet % It needs to be 5% or higher for you to call profitably. I find at NL200 an average 3bet range is about 5% but at low stakes im not so sure you get 3 bet too often so if he is an unknown I fold only calling QQ+
      +1

      If he is unknown bigstack then its a hard call - If we think that he is competent then i would suggest folding because your UTG raise represents a lot of strength so re-raising represents even more. Best you can hope for is a flip with AK imo.

      -Jack
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by raun
      but should i rather call with hands that beat these ranges and not just hands that are in this range?

      should i look at a person's 3bet stat to make exceptions? or will his vpip/pfr tell me enough ?
      You want hands that have a bit more than Breakeven equity against what you think Villain is 3betting with. This will be a wider range against your MPraising range of course. Yes its a good idea to look at Villains 3bet stats. Vpip/pfr will often not give you enough info.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Originally posted by raun
      interesting, i dont agree however. if he is intelligent he would see that i am a sss player raising from utg and take that into consideration.

      is it because of the low limit you think that he would 3bet so loose?
      'if he is intelligent'? so what? he won't always be intelligent. he'll often not be intelligent. on average, don't you have over 40%?

      of course, if he's 12/12, then he's not unknown to you.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      @ kruppe no i wouldn't think so.

      i would think i would have about 37% on average here. very few players would reraise a short stacks raise from utg with less than ak or jj+ in my experience.
      and other sss players would only raise me with aa and kk

      but then again im not a very experienced player so what do you think kruppe? in the case he is an unknown.

      and in the case he is not unknown, what stats would you need him to have to call him?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      i don't actually know. i'd assume that enough shortstacks are retarded for it to be a call on average, but i guess that depends on platform and limit.