Question to fulltilters

    • mafaz
      mafaz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2007 Posts: 222
      Anyone considering to leave fulltilt cause datamining is no more possible?
      My known players % dropped to a sad sad 14% when i had it at 70%

      Do you think its more profitable to play on other platforms where datamining is still possible and where you know what your opponent stats are?
  • 17 replies
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      i never datamined anyway

      multitabling is good enough as it is and frankl;y im glad that it isnt possible to do this thing anymore, if you want to have info on me, ship the monies
    • MancaMulas
      MancaMulas
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2009 Posts: 4,491
      In Full Tilt Poker, the fastest poker game online!
    • iamblueandurmine
      iamblueandurmine
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2008 Posts: 130
      Full tilt is still some of the best software around and im glad they got rid of datamining, even though i did it myself to an extent i only did it so i didnt feel my unknown opponents had an edge on me. Poker shouldnt be about leaving 24 tables open for a week gaining stats it should be about reactive conditioning, learning your opponents through playing with them! game on
    • Jonnym32
      Jonnym32
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 33
      Never used it and in lots of ways it seems unfair.
    • EagleStar88
      EagleStar88
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2008 Posts: 7,359
      There is a difference between collecting stats/data whilst you are playing at tables (perfectly acceptable) and out and out datamining (collecting data whilst not active at the table).

      I personally applaud and welcome the decision to take data mining out of poker, it is (in my view) a form of cheating.

      I do however still consider gathering data from your own play, e.g. via Elephant acceptable and useful, however I no longer use these myself. I prefer to build on my own ability to read the situation/other players, but each to their own.

      Best regards,


      Bart

      Views expressed are my own personal opinion as a member of this forum and not necessarily reflect the views of PokerStrategy. Moderators are members too :)
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      I couldn't agree more. Data mining seems to me like the poker equivalent of steroids for athletes.

      I use Elephant which collects and organizes data that I've 'paid for' by posting my blinds.

      I sympathise a bit with players who are doing this for a living and therefore feel they need every edge they can get - if the wellfare of my family were on the line, I'd probably datamine too - but overall the concept leaves a pretty unpleasant taste in my mouth.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      I agree data mining is bad. I mean why should you know everything about me without playing with me at all? doesn't make sence.

      I like what fulltilt has done about that.
    • danwong
      danwong
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2008 Posts: 61
      Never datamined, at the stakes i'm playing (NL5), I doubt it would matter anyway. If I were to move up, I'd observe a few tables to see the level of play, but even then its faster to just sit down and play.
    • mafaz
      mafaz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2007 Posts: 222
      i didnt say datamining is good.
      But since it exists and if someone uses it ill be using it too.
      I just asked a simple question and you made such a flame... :)
      Also.... i dont see how datamining is different from using HUD with stats you have. If your so cool why the hell u use hud stats?
    • kennyxx
      kennyxx
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.05.2008 Posts: 998
      Originally posted by mafaz
      Also.... i dont see how datamining is different from using HUD with stats you have. If your so cool why the hell u use hud stats?
      Originally posted by iamblueandurmine
      Poker shouldnt be about leaving 24 tables open for a week gaining stats it should be about reactive conditioning, learning your opponents through playing with them!
      THIS! :s_cool:
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      i didnt say datamining is good.
      But since it exists and if someone uses it ill be using it too.
      I just asked a simple question and you made such a flame...
      Also.... i dont see how datamining is different from using HUD with stats you have. If your so cool why the hell u use hud stats? ining is good.


      Well, you asked a simple question and you got responses. It's a forum so ofc you won't agree with all the responses, but you might want to consider the fact that no one who has responded is in favour of datamining.

      No one is criticising you personally for datamining in the past but if you give the reason: 'other people do it, so I will' it isn't entirely convincing. A few athletes take steroids but that shouldn't entitle all the other athletes to say "well in that case, I will too".

      I think there is a difference between HUD and d/mining. If you play at a table, you can - if you wish - record all the information about when a player raises, folds etc. That is what Elephant etc does for you, but if you had enough time and patience you could just write down the same information and work out the stats using Excel or something (ok, realistically this is silly but it's just to make a point). Well, if you're not playing at a table you shouldn't have access to the information because you didn't pay for the information by investing your blinds.

      So, there's a difference - in my opinion - between how you choose to record the information you've paid for (if you choose to record it at all) and obtaining information you haven't really paid for.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      it is different.

      if you use a HUD and have let's say 10k hands of a villian but you have played them together then he also has info about you (or at least should have, even without using a hud)

      datamining someone can know my exact river check raise without playing me at all , which is not the same.
    • mafaz
      mafaz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2007 Posts: 222
      I never datamined too much. Just wasnt hurrying to close the table when i was planning to leave or so on. Or when i was going to take my dinner etc.
      Never left pc overnight to datamine. But problem is datamined hands can be bought and so on....

      There is a difference btw using hud and datamining. But its not that huge as you imagine. If you yourself would make those notes thats fine. But now a computer program gives you all the numbers you only need to decide what to do with them. Not you yourself do this hard work. You get everything on the plate.
      And never ever would you be able to take notes on all 9 players at your table yourself - how much they fold BB, contibet etc, etc. And especially when playing 18 tables or whatever :) So its not so different.


      "Well, if you're not playing at a table you shouldn't have access to the information because you didn't pay for the information by investing your blinds."

      But you can still datamine as you said yourself on fulltilt. Cause if you open a table now you can still see all the action. You can still make notes and see the betting patterns of whomever you want you can even see the winners cards i think. What you dont get is a .txt document where all that information is available for your hud program to procces all that data.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      Originally posted by mafaz

      And never ever would you be able to take notes on all 9 players at your table yourself - how much they fold BB, contibet etc, etc. And especially when playing 18 tables or whatever :) So its not so different.
      you are right about this. then datamining would be like observing the tables before playing which is of course fair.
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Well, a lot of ppl seem to be against datamining and so am I. And IMO this is completely different from using a HUD to show stats about hands you have played against other players.
      Let's say you're playing against someone whom you have no hands recorded, if you have no information on him at all, it's safe to assume that he also has no information on you and make your decisions based on this information...
      But if he's using datamined hands than he's forcing you to play based on a wrong assumption, putting you in a unfair disadvantage.

      It's of course possible (and fair) for someone to watch a table and gather information on you writing it down as notes, but that's also completely different from datamining, and completely fair IMO.
      If a player wants to put some effort into (manually) writing down information on some players when just watching (I don't do it though), that's perfectly fine IMO, and it's completely different from letting a software do all the work on a much greater number of hands (and players) while this player is sleeping or doing something else.

      And gathering information while you're playing at 18 tables is also different from datamining, and IMO it's not because you've payed the blinds for it, but simply because almost everyone nowadays use some kind of tracking software (HEM, PT, Elephant, etc...) even on the lowest limits, so all the information you gather while playing 18 tables, is also information you're giving away to the other players on those tables, and that doesn't put anyone in an unfair spot.
    • eddiie
      eddiie
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.12.2006 Posts: 52
      I like that dataminig is not allowed on FTP because its little unfair, but yu still can buy handhistories on web X(
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      @ mafaz: You're right about observing tables - you do get information for free. And because of that, my point about 'paying' for the information by paying for blinds doesn't quite work.

      @ Faye6891: I agree. If you datamine, you get statistical information on a player without playing them. I think using software to collect statistical information is alright in principle, so long as it's information from hands you've been involved in.

      If you want to observe a few tables before playing to get some reads on players, I think that's ok - it's a little like doing your homework. I don't have a problem with people trying to gain an edge over their opponents. After all - that's what happens when anyone of us reads an article or watches a video. There's no point being overly sentimental about it - ultimately we are trying to take other people's money from them.

      But somehow I feel that there ought to be an equivalence about things. And I would say that having 20k hands on someone without ever having sat at a table with them gives you an advantage over them which they can't hope to neutralise, whatever they do (unless they have 20k datamined hands against you).

      So I guess datamining would be ok if everyone had access to the same store of mined hands, but that's not the case.