[NL2-NL10] NL100 AKs v tightish mp3 R

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      MP1:
      $101.25
      Hero:
      $26.50

      0.5/1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with A:club: , K:club:
      2 folds, MP1 raises to $3.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $9.00, 2 folds, MP1 raises to $101.25 (All-In), Hero raises to $26.50 (All-In).

      Flop: ($129.25) 8:heart: , 5:diamond: , Q:heart:
      Turn: ($129.25) A:heart:
      River: ($129.25) 5:heart: (1 players)


      Final Pot: $129.25

      This hand spelt the turn in today's session from positive to negative, so maybe I'm being overly pessimistic. But I'm beginning to dread getting dealt AK. It seems that when we re-raise a relatively tight opponent, the very best we can expect is to split the pot and lose the rake. In all other cases, we're a dog. Does my stack size (waiting to blind out) give an additional reason for folding pf - or am I just being paranoid?

      Villain is openraising 7% from mp1 (7/94 cases).
  • 16 replies
    • mikelstwe
      mikelstwe
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 156
      .
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      please stop standard 3betting preflop
      it just brings ugly situations you cannot handle

      -> push preflop
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Thanks - but don't we have an advantage when we're in position that speaks in favour of 3betting?

      Is it because my hand is AK that we shouldn't standard 3bet or would you say we should also push AA the same in this spot?

      Could you also say something about the point I'm making about 3betting tight players with AK? - aside from whether we re-raise 3x or just push preflop (since in this instance it's academic)

      Thanks
    • aboesing
      aboesing
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2008 Posts: 900
      You have 26,5BB, so you can wait for blinds, but when you have more than 25BB you can wait for blinds to go out and play more tight.
      In EP and MP you play with QQ+ and LP and blinds AK and JJ+.
      Vilain open 3,5 BB, so you respond to 3 X 3,5 BB = 10,5 BB. This is not more than half you stack (because you are not using standart 20BB).
      Your opponent push, so you call.
      If you equilate your AKs against a PFR of 4,5% (9%/2) you have 47% equity, and pot odds give you a better equity, so you make a correct move.
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      okay, first of all: i never 3bet normally.
      I did it in the past and like you got many ugly postflop situations
      e.g: -you have just 2 overcards and the opponent puts you all in at the flop...
      - you have 99/TT/JJ (opponent puts you all in at the flop... what to do

      I push directy over a 2bb minraise too.
      Let me explain: the risk reward ratio gets very bad, thats true.
      But on the other hand you generate more fold equity if you push 20bb over a 2bb (2,5bb) raise.
      So in my opinion the more fold equity we generate compensates the lack of deadmoney (just 2bb raise + 1,5bb blinds).

      Your AKs hand against a 7% pfr and 3,5bb openraise, we can calculate it.

      estimated callingrange of mp1: AK,TT -> FE: 50%

      EV = (0,5 * 5bb) + 0,5*[(0,434 * 25,3) - (0,566 * 26,5)] = + 0.5bb

      So you see it gets closer if we have a bigger stack but AKs against 7% is always +ev.

      You can fold it against 6% here, but could push against 6% with a 17bb stack...
      its all very dynamic.


      2) same hand with 60% fold equity (vs AK,JJ)
      EV = 0,57*5 + 0,43*(0,428*25,3 - 0,572*26,5) = +0,99bb

      So you see, with more fold equity, this move gets more profitable.
      And thats the point that i prefer a direct push:
      - we generate more fold equity
      - avoid ugly flop decisions
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hey wuusaa,

      Thanks for your time in responding - I appreciate it.

      Intersesting points about FE. Will have to take some time to absorb. I do push more often than not when I 3bet, since normally I only have a ~18bb stack. But I suppose here there is no advantage to 3x reraise since I'm not folding to the 4bet anyway, so I only deprive myself some FE.
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      no problem :)

      one positive point for 3betting would be: he will probably call many worse hands he would fold on a direct push (AJ,AQ,KQ)
      But I am not an expert in regular 3betting
    • dandycal
      dandycal
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2008 Posts: 1,711
      This is indeed interesting. I had never heard of such an approach to 3bets pre-flop. Wuusa, do you always push pre-flop only against nits/Tags or is this a general approach?

      If we are up against another SS, then it makes obvious sense because for both of us a 3bet means push or fold, since a 20bb stack is too small to call a 3bet (unless we are overstacked).

      But whenever we are against a BS, I think things are quite different and often so much Fe pre-flop won't maximize our EV. Especially if we are up against a slightly looser opponent pre-flop, then by having room for post-flop play we'll surely have even more opportunity to make +++EV moves.
      Another point would be balancing our lines. I mean, we surely don't want max FE pre-flop with QQ+ for instance, but we'd rather get a looser call and still be ahead on flop the great majority of the cases, and in that case a regular 3 bet sounds better?
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      sure, you can try to 3bet QQ+ and push AQ,AK directly against silly players.
      But against regulars I pay much attention not being too readable.

      Otherwise, against shorties: It doesnt matter if you minraise him or push him directly because he will push or fold.
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      I just use the basic strategy, that if the bet is near half my stack I push. Otherwise I'm ok with playing after the flop. If I'm commited, than better to push preflop.

      I don't think our fold equity changes a lot with pushing and calling out of position don't really help our opponents. On the blinds however it's probably better to push to negate position.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Well it's a combination of advantages, I think.

      We must have more FE when we push than when we 3bet normally - even if in some cases the difference is not great. But I particularly like that it obviates difficult flop decisions.

      Probably that will infuriate poker purists since they already see SSS as a way of avoiding having to think on the flop, but overall I think I loose more to mistakes with my flop play than with the occasionaly loose pf push. But we'll see...
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hey Tim64,

      with bigger stack I prefer to 3-bet/call than direct push. This way you can still get it in to a 4-bet and if you get called you have the advantage of initiative and position on the flop. Besides, opponent might call some weaker hands than he would if you push, so you do better against his range.

      Nice hand.

      So, in summary, you can reduce variance if you 3-bet and against most opponents it's as well more profitable.

      ...for EV with AK against tight opponents I thank to wuusaa for the calculations. :f_thumbsup:

      Regards,
      burek2000
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      So, in summary, you can reduce variance


      Well I'm certainly in favour of that as V iss giving me a real kicking atm, but I want to check I understand why.

      Does it reduce variance because if I get called by a better hand I have a chance to get away from the hand If I don't hit on the flop?

      I'm not sure about this since it seems I am pot comitted anyway in 99% of cases so I end up just pushing the flop as a c-bet. And I can't play 3bet/fold so I'm not sure I understand why variance is reduced. Sorry to be dim - can you clarify?
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      You reduce variance, because if you 3-bet normally then you will probably be up against looser range as if you were pushing, which means your equity is better and thus lower variance.

      Another thing if you get called preflop, you can decide on the flop whether the flop is good or bad for you to continue which also reduces variance as you only invested ~1/3 of the stack and can save other 2/3 on bad boards for you(you couldn't do that OOP tho).

      On the other hand, if you push you either win a small pot or are flipping/loosing against opponent's calling range with your increased stack, which brings higher variance.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      I see. So you're saying that by pusing, we're more likely to isolate ourselves against better hands?
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Originally posted by Tim64
      I see. So you're saying that by pusing, we're more likely to isolate ourselves against better hands?
      Yes, but the difference in opponent's range won't be very big, specially in ranges he 4-bets with. But if he 4-bets, it's the same as if you push.

      However, you will benefit from 3-bet when opponent calls preflop. That's where he will usually have also a looser range and you will be able to take advantage of position and initiative on the flop.