A whooping post! (WARNING: Long post!)

    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Hello everyone!

      For those who doesn't know (what I mean is... everyone) I had been a breakeven player on NL100 FR for a long time. From Septmeber 2008 to May 2009. I would always slowly and unsteadily win some money, then I'd lose it all in just a couple of sessions (or hands). Actually that happenned twice, and it's always very frustating to lose just in a couple of hours everything you took 5 or 6 months to win.

      I've never been one to blame everyone else for things that happen in my life, so I end up taking a lot on myself, and after the second time it happened at the beginning of June this year (All due to tilting), I got really frustrated with my game. Thought about quitting also, I mean, I like the game, I had been really giving some thought as wether to turn pro or not and that tilting session (where I had been running bad and on top of that I decided to donate 250BB+ stacks on two different tables) really got me down. Decided to step away from the game for a while, even got a little bit sick, probably due to overall stress, and that contributed to leaving me almost the whole month of June away from the felt.

      During this time I wasn't playing, I decided to study the game and analyze my own game and well... I had a "Oh! Snap!" moment! :s_smile:
      I started understanding a lot of things I hadn't really understood so far and I started seeing the big picture of the game.

      Well, I decided to go back to the felt but first... screw the FR tables, I realized I was only playing them because I was too afraid of having to pay for the blinds every 6 hands (yeah, like if that had anything to do with being a winning player), and that was just too pathetic for someone who can see "living from poker" as a possibility.
      Before that I'd only play FR and change tables as soon as there were only 6 players left, now I'm playing SH and I couldn't care less if it gets HU (actually I've been finding HU pretty amusing). :s_cool:

      Second thing I did was go back to NL50, my BR was down to a little more than $3k (around where it had been for a looooong time) so I wanted to get up to $3.5k before moving up to NL100 again. Well, that didn't take too long ~3k hands later and a whooping ~27BB/100 (BB = Big Blinds) and up in NL100 again.

      Now, ~7k hands in NL100 and a whooping ~29BB/100 (along with rakeback and another whooping ~123BB/100 on NL50HU in just 500 hands though) my BR is now a little bit above $6k.

      But the two things that are most satisfying are not the whopping winrates, but:

      1) The fact that I'm understanding the game a lot better, and enjoying it a lot more (even during -500BB losing sessions).

      2) This:



      The Non-showdown winnings have been steadily going up at a whooping ~20BB/100 and the EV line just a little bit below true winnings.
      Note that this graph is only for NL100 hands.

      My non-showdown winnings had never been so high... actually my non-showdown winnings had never been above $0, and now it's been so steady.

      Only 7k hands though, so let's see how it will behave.

      The big dropdown around 5k hands were due to two distractions (I could swear I saw his AF at 9.0... it was actually 0.9, and I made two very horrible plays in two big pots :s_ugly: ) and one experiment that didn't turn out so good, tried to extract too much value in a very marginal spot and end up commiting myself to the hand. Oh well, I don't think it was the right move, but I believe it's important to not be afraid of experimenting and trying different things. Later I saw it was a mistake, now I'll just avoid making that again.

      Well, but anyway, the most important thing here is the fact that I didn't tilt on those hands (and I would usually tilt when I made such huge mistakes).

      For now I'll just keep playing on NL100 for a while and see how things go, when I feel I'm ready I'll go up to NL200.

      And to finish this very long post, here's the biggest pot I've ever won a few days ago.

      Call me a donk, a moron, an asshole... and tell me you wish you had me seating on your table. I still think the hand was well played... and I'll gladly sit at your table! :s_biggrin:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

      Known players:
      BB:
      $227.75
      MP2:
      $97.50
      MP3:
      $100.00
      CO(Hero):
      $279.75
      BU:
      $187.85


      Preflop: Hero is CO with 5, 4.
      2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, BU folds, BB raises to $13.00, Hero calls $9.50.

      Flop: ($26.5) 8, 6, Q (2 players)
      BB bets $15.00, Hero raises to $45.00, BB raises to $214.75(All-In), Hero calls $169.75.

      Turn: ($456) 4 (2 players)


      River: ($456) J (2 players)


      Final Pot: $456.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a flush, jack high(5 4).
      BB shows a pair of aces(A A).

      Hero wins with a flush, jack high(5 4).

      Needless to say, Villain cursed me and my entire family... :s_love: and then unfortunately left the table. :s_cry:
  • 18 replies
    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      great story. gl becoming a pro if that is what u decide to do.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Really enjoyed this read.
      I see all these players with rising non-showdown lines, how how how?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      I don't think that such winrates are sustainable, but meh, who cares, sick redline dude. :) How much tables you usually play?

      Don't hurry too much on moving up, slow and steady wins the race. ;)
    • caltabiano
      caltabiano
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      Sick non-SD winnings man. Share with us the main leaks that were fixed during your break =)
    • cactusbob
      cactusbob
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 24
      ?(

      If you went through all that to get a better understanding of the game and become the winning player that you want to be.... Why push your stack in when you're clearly a dog, and might even be dominated by AQs?
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Originally posted by cactusbob
      ?(

      If you went through all that to get a better understanding of the game and become the winning player that you want to be.... Why push your stack in when you're clearly a dog, and might even be dominated by AQs?
      What are you going on about?
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Well... another long post. I just can't help myself. :rolleyes:

      Originally posted by fun101rockets
      great story. gl becoming a pro if that is what u decide to do.
      Thx man! Poker is something that's not gonna be seen as a job by anyone around me, and even though I know my parents would support me, it's always nice to get support from more ppl... even those you personally don't know! :P

      Originally posted by justkyle88
      Really enjoyed this read.
      I see all these players with rising non-showdown lines, how how how?
      Well... dificult to explain in just a few words. :s_cool:

      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      I don't think that such winrates are sustainable, but meh, who cares, sick redline dude. :) How much tables you usually play?

      Don't hurry too much on moving up, slow and steady wins the race. ;)


      I don't think they are sustainable either, but I'm really surprised that red line is growing so steadily, just played another session for 533 hands (wanted to play more but I'm really tired right now) and guess what? The red line winrate has gone from 20BB/100 to 21BB/100... that's just so sick! But it's great! :s_cool:

      I usually (always :P ) play 3 tables, I was playing 2 NLH alongside 1 PLO table, but my PLO game is not too good, I'm feeling lost a bunch of time during my sessions, so I decided to focus on my Hold'em game for now. So it's been 3 NLH tables. If I open too many tables I start going on auto-pilot, and that's something I really want to avoid.

      I'm not really trying to rush and move up, with my BR right now I don't think I'd be too comfortable playing NL200. So I won't play this limit right now, I really don't think I'll find an opposition that's a lot better than NL100, but if I can't play in my confort zone than I'd better not play, even against players that are probably weaker.
      But I won't hold myself back either, as soon as I think I'll be comfortable, I'm moving up. Maybe opening 1 NL200 table with 2 NL100 just to get a feel for the new limit. But don't worry, I won't rush. :s_grin:

      Originally posted by caltabiano
      Sick non-SD winnings man. Share with us the main leaks that were fixed during your break =)
      Should I write a book? :s_p:

      There were quite a few leaks, most of them psychological I think.

      Fear was definetely one of them, thinking too much about the money instead of just making the right decisions... I don't know, just a bunch.

      Playing on auto-pilot was definetely a leak. I mean, being able to adjust to your opponents is SO important IMO. It already happenned to me that I was playing a session, around 200 hands on each table and my stats on each table was something like this. 15/11 on one table, 25/23 on the second table and (a whooping) 50/45 on the third table.

      And since now I'm not playing afraid anymore, I just go with my reads (stats, match flow and actual reads on a opponent) and If I "feel" I have the best of it I go for it, no matter how much money is in the pot. Please, notice that "by the best of it" I'm refering to all those times when I feel I got enough equity in the hand, be it SD equity or fold equity (or both).

      Another thing I could point is that now I'm stealing the blinds a lot more. I'm actually playing a lot more agressive overall. I've been stealing a lot, 3-bet bluffing a lot, 4-bet bluffing a lot, 2nd barreling a lot, 3rd barreling a lot. The way I'm saying it, you're now probably thinking I'm a completely maniac (well, maybe I am :s_biggrin: ) but I've been choosing these spots very carefully and not rushing any decision. I've just been doing it a lot because my opponents actually let me run over them, when they start fighting back, I adjust.
      Notice also that I didn't say I'm c-betting a lot... well, I am, but I'm actually c-betting less than before. I found I was c-betting way too often, and they were just not working as often as they needed to.

      Another thing I changed were my betting sizes, they used to be 2/3 of the pot all the time, sometimes 3/4. All because I had that not-being-exploitable-paranoia... well, now I think that using the same bet size always is way too bad, so now my betting size is something like... well, I don't know, depends on what I want to accomplish. :s_wink:

      I could probably go on forever here, so for those that are seeking some advice, I'm gonna say something I saw in a video from another site (I'm not gonna post the name though, I don't if it's permitted) that got me to start thinking about these things.

      Poker is not about making big hands.
      Poker is not about getting AA when your opponent gets KK.
      Poker is not about giving coolers.
      Poker is not about trying to avoid coolers.

      Originally posted by cactusbob
      ?(

      If you went through all that to get a better understanding of the game and become the winning player that you want to be.... Why push your stack in when you're clearly a dog, and might even be dominated by AQs?
      OMG! :s_o:

      Well, I don't really know If I should answer your question... since I tend to get a little sarcastic and that wouldn't be nice to a new member, I guess I'd better not answer.

      Nice first post and welcome to the forums! :rolleyes:

      Thx again for your feedback guys!
    • cactusbob
      cactusbob
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 24

      OMG!

      Well, I don't really know If I should answer your question... since I tend to get a little sarcastic and that wouldn't be nice to a new member, I guess I'd better not answer.

      Nice first post and welcome to the forums!

      Thx again for your feedback guys!
      No need to get sarcastic. I was refering to this:


      I still think the hand was well played
      I was asking a serious question. You mention you play a hand well Just because when you call 169$ into a pot of 300, when you have 10 outs at best? (and you know he really can't have anything else except for a huge hand here)

      This is an honest question. I'd like to know why you think making a -EV call is good play. You can say you got lucky, but well played?
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by cactusbob

      OMG!

      Well, I don't really know If I should answer your question... since I tend to get a little sarcastic and that wouldn't be nice to a new member, I guess I'd better not answer.

      Nice first post and welcome to the forums!

      Thx again for your feedback guys!
      No need to get sarcastic. I was refering to this:


      I still think the hand was well played
      I was asking a serious question. You mention you play a hand well Just because when you call 169$ into a pot of 300, when you have 10 outs at best? (and you know he really can't have anything else except for a huge hand here)

      This is an honest question. I'd like to know why you think making a -EV call is good play. You can say you got lucky, but well played?
      10 outs = 40%
      pot odds = 37%

      Its +EV to call shove imo
    • karmolll
      karmolll
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2008 Posts: 101
      13 outs FD + GUTSHOT but I still don t like the call in that spot for 170BB , a push is OK but I dont like the call ( just my opinion)
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      hey, remember when we used to spam the hand evaluation forums back in the day? ^^


      That's a very sexy graph :) I recently had one of those big game changes -- wasn't able to figure it all out on my own though, I needed a couple coaching vids... but that little red line is finally starting to point up :)

      The most important tip i can give you to keep that up is (obviously) to continue working on your game, and not to fall into "automatic" play -- think about every hand, especially small, seemingly obvious pots

      oh wait, you said that already, just read that. never mind then :D

      btw, if you want to play a session or two via teamviewer, feel free to add me on skype :) (craig.f.watson)
    • KidPokersKid
      KidPokersKid
      Global
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 653
      Post a HU video and teach us some of your ways always nice to see different players prespectives when it comes to HU play. If not... well keep running HOT :s_evil:
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      OK, sorry cactusbob... I'm a naturally sarcastic guy! :D

      But yeah, I think the hand was well played.

      PF I believe his 3-betting range is wider given my loose image, I could 4-bet, but since we were deep, I decided to see a flop IP.

      On the flop I really expect him to fold a ton of his range there, most of it is air and even given my loose image at the table people just get scared when the pot gets too big and they hardly ever fight back with nothing. And even if he has a hand like JJ, TT, 99, QJ... he'll find himself in a pretty tough spot playing for more than 200BB. So he'll also fold these type of hands quite often.

      Well, unfortunately this time he shoved and the pot odds are just too good for me to lay down here.

      I don't have 10 outs there, I've got 12 outs. I could also catch running 4s (trips), running 5s (trips), 5 and 4 (two pair), 2 and 3 (straight). These runners also add a little more equity to my hand.

      And yeah, I could be up against QQ, A :diamond: K :diamond: , A :diamond: Q :diamond: . Vs. the QQ and pure FD like the AK, I'm not really dominated, the domination is only against the AQ, and that's a very small portion of his range. So, no way I can fold because of that, if he has it... he has it, nothing I can do.

      @karmolll: I'm not really worried about the amount of money here, it could be for 20BB it could for 500BB, I don't care. The odds were good so I made the call. It's definetely high variance, but not -EV IMO.

      @swissmoumout: Me? Spamming? Nah... you're making some kind of confusion! :s_rolleyes:

      Well, I didn't really figured everything out on my own. Some vids from another site helped me out a ton, pointing me in the right way to think about the game and start fixing my game.

      No no... auto-pilot is a no no!! :s_mad:
      The game even becomes a little bit boring. :s_zZz:

      Never played a session via teamviewer... but I'll add you as soon as I get skype re-installed on my pc.
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by KidPokersKid
      Post a HU video and teach us some of your ways always nice to see different players prespectives when it comes to HU play. If not... well keep running HOT :s_evil:
      Nah... don't wanna make a video. And I haven't really been playing a ton of HU, but IMO it's not different from FR or SH. All you have to do is adapt to your opponents... well, easier said than done but... well, I guess I'll just keep running hot then. :D
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,145
      wtf how the f

      very nice, really happy to see you finally do really well :)

      btw, how come you seem to ALWAYS be gold for the last year? what's your secret?

      but that 54s hand is compeltely standard, isn't it?
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Thx Kruppe!

      Well, I'm always gold because I can never play enough hands to reach platinum and my "secret" is... I'm one of the voluntary hand judges (up to NL50). Although for a period of time last year I was pretty active evaluating hands, I just got pretty busy afterwards and have been quite inactive later. Sometimes I evaluate a hand or two though. If it wasn't for that I'd be changing between silver and gold all along.

      I think the hand is standard also. Just posted because right now it's the biggest pot I've ever won. But not everyone seems to think it's standard.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Start blog, seems like would be nice read. :)
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Nah, I'd just spend too much time writing these long posts. :D

      Maybe if things keep going well in the next few months I might think about it.

      Woohoo!! \o/
      A small post! :P