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When to use ChipEV and when to use $EV?

    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Silver
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Hi, Im playing the 18Man SnG and im trying to improve my skills. My question is pretty much said in the title, i will give one example:

      Situation: 12 players left, 4 players paid. KJ at CO.

      According to sng wiz, if we use ChipEV, we push



      If we use $EV, sng wiz will think this is the final table, so 6 players left, wich is not correct. $EV graph:




      What should we use here?
  • 7 replies
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,397
      U can't use equilibrium pushes when playing low buyin SnGs. Oponnents aren't good enough. U push depending on how loose/tight the blinds are. But looking at this spot easy push for me regardless. Ur still far from the money and even if it's slightly -EV it's irrelevant.
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      In a tourney you should basically always use $EV...
    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Silver
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Originally posted by LuborC
      In a tourney you should basically always use $EV...
      $EV sng wiz consider this is the final table, wich is wrong.

      Originally posted by Atoks
      U can't use equilibrium pushes when playing low buyin SnGs. Oponnents aren't good enough. U push depending on how loose/tight the blinds are. But looking at this spot easy push for me regardless. Ur still far from the money and even if it's slightly -EV it's irrelevant.
      I know that problem. Im playing the $6,50 sng's, and thats why im using sng wiz to adjust my game based on my opponents range.

      Why if it's slightly -EV it's irrevelant?
    • LgWz
      LgWz
      Black
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      Hmmm I don't get it, wiz should recognize it's a two table sng and react accordingly, shouldn't it?
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,397
      Originally posted by Alverine
      Originally posted by LuborC
      In a tourney you should basically always use $EV...
      $EV sng wiz consider this is the final table, wich is wrong.

      Originally posted by Atoks
      U can't use equilibrium pushes when playing low buyin SnGs. Oponnents aren't good enough. U push depending on how loose/tight the blinds are. But looking at this spot easy push for me regardless. Ur still far from the money and even if it's slightly -EV it's irrelevant.
      I know that problem. Im playing the $6,50 sng's, and thats why im using sng wiz to adjust my game based on my opponents range.

      Why if it's slightly -EV it's irrevelant?
      Because ur playing against scared money. They will not call u without premiums. Folding is OK but I like to steal in a spot like this because often enough the blinds will call even less then 7% range.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      I think in multi table tournaments the rule goes

      more players --> chip ev more important
      less players (aka closer too bubble) --> $EV super important.

      That being said, in a 18man sng $EV is pretty much always most important. There is no point getting it in with a 52% advantage in the first hand.

      What I'm more curious about : how do you have to adjust the ICM calculations with the unknown factors that are on other tables?

      say you are down to 10 players (2 tables), and there are 4 super shortstacks on the table you're NOT playing on. This has to have an impact on your $EV in calculations, but how can you let the sng wizard factor it in?
    • Alverine
      Alverine
      Silver
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 1,938
      Originally posted by viewer88
      I think in multi table tournaments the rule goes

      more players --> chip ev more important
      less players (aka closer too bubble) --> $EV super important.

      That being said, in a 18man sng $EV is pretty much always most important. There is no point getting it in with a 52% advantage in the first hand.

      What I'm more curious about : how do you have to adjust the ICM calculations with the unknown factors that are on other tables?

      say you are down to 10 players (2 tables), and there are 4 super shortstacks on the table you're NOT playing on. This has to have an impact on your $EV in calculations, but how can you let the sng wizard factor it in?
      You cant. When i put sng wiz to calculate the $EV he assumes this is the final table. If we switch to cEV, he assumes we are far away from the money. Both are wrong. I see that problem on situations like the bubble of a big tourney. Its impossible to calculate the right situation based on a program, because there is so many factors unknown (like player stacks)