Is there some big leak?

    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      Is it normal to have non-SD winnings of about -350 when my SD winnings are +390 ? I think this is my biggest leak ? limit is NL10
  • 9 replies
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      I did not see nl10 winning players graph with positive or break even NSD.
      But if you think you spew too much then i guess just play more hands in position and less OOP.
    • AugustusCaesar
      AugustusCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2008 Posts: 377
      It is very situational and depends on the players you play .. For example with PokerStars tight guys, you should try to 3-bet them more and check-raise their conti-bets to increase your nonSD winnings .. If you play against loose fish like on bWin its absolutely OK to have - nonSD winnings as IMO it is just much better to play for pure value and do not try anything else there ..
    • jenoc
      jenoc
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 510
      Well, I can't say for sure if this is normal, but @ NL10 my NonSD winnings where -4.8bb/100 after 20k hands, so you're not alone :f_p:
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      Can you maybe post a graph and a lot of stats? It's normal for it to be negative. But this seems like a big number compared to your SD-winnings. I'm not sure, I just can't quite picture it.

      I have a nonSD that's always around the $0 point. Not only in the 6K hands now, but also over a lot more hands when I played NL25. I don't know why to be honest, don't know what I'm doing different, but maybe I could spot something.
      Are you playing FR or SH btw? (I suck at FR)

      greetz :f_cool:
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      Oki

      Here are my stats: VPIP - 13,55 PFR - 9,82 W$WSF - 38,41 WTSD - 24,76 W$SD - 54,1 AF - 2,97 AFq - 44 3bet - 3,24 Fold to 3bet - 78 Att to steal - 21,31 FlopCbet - 89,35
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      Originally posted by kosmonaut111
      Oki

      Here are my stats: VPIP - 13,55 PFR - 9,82 W$WSF - 38,41 WTSD - 24,76 W$SD - 54,1 AF - 2,97 AFq - 44 3bet - 3,24 Fold to 3bet - 78 Att to steal - 21,31 FlopCbet - 89,35
      Hi kosmonaut111,

      I saw you are posting hands in the full ring section. I don't really want to give advice to fr players because I have never proven to be a winner in that game. I did play it a bit and was breaking even, but no big sample.

      Besides that, my guess would be it would be normal for full ring players to have lower nonsd winnings than sh players because:
      - The pots are more often multiway, so your change of winning the pot (with or without showdown) decreases.
      - Except when you have aces there's a bigger change somebody has a better starting hand.

      (Btw, I was more after your postflop stats, but I'm not gonna comment on them anyway)


      A lot of my nonsd-winnings have to do with handreading I think (and not playing a lot of tables), I played a lot of hands at the microstakes. SD-winings are more important to work on :) .


      GL :s_cool:
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Well, I haven't played FR for a while and haven't played NL10 for a very long time. But I hope I can help somehow.

      Probably down in NL10 you can be a winning player even with a negative non-SD, but I think it's very important to work on this. It seems nowadays even the lower limits are populated with nits, and looking at your stats, well, I can say you're one of them. :P

      Nothing wrong with playing this style when you're learning the game, it will put you in a lot less difficult spots but the problem is, if you don't choose your tables carefully (and keep moving tables as necessary) you'll soon find yourself in a table full of players playing the exact same style you're playing (fold, fold, fold, fold... you get the idea :D ), and well, and I think that's kinda obvious but, it can't be too profitable (if it can at all).

      The best thing to do, IMO, is adjust to the players on your table. If you're playing against calling stations, well, then play the nit style, fold almost everything and valuebet your strong hands, your non-SD will most likely be negative and there's nothing you can do about it.
      But if you're playing against nits, go ahead and put pressure on them, move them off pots, 3-bet them lighter IP, most of the time they're gonna have air post-flop, they won't be able to call your bets and they won't fight back, they'll just fold, because that's what nits do.

      I've taken just the extremes here (calling stations and nits) but of course there are players who play a style that's in between, and you'll have to adapt to them differently.

      Of course you don't need to play a LAG style to be winning player, but even playing a TAG style you have to adapt to different players, and sometimes that means making bluffs you usually wouldn't make, calling down lighter than you usually would, etc. And for this you'll have to work on your reads, and that's always a good thing.

      For now, to start working on your game, maybe you could try looking for spots to 3-bet these guys lighter, look for spots to second barrel, or just keep constantly changing tables after the calling stations. :P
      But don't go out pulling big insane bluffs, it's probably not profitable in NL10 (well, probably... I'd try it though :D ... but's it your money on the line, not mine, so I don't recommend it).

      Just one more thing, when trying to make moves, I strongly suggest you to make them in position, you'll just put yourself in a world of hurt and difficult decisions if you do it OOP. I know it, I've been doing it and... well... let's just say I've managed to get my "non-SD winnings" above my "actual winnings" in the last 12K-13K hands. :f_biggrin:

      And before I finish my post let me just comment on something Ka0s posted:
      "SD-winings are more important to work on."

      I really disagree with you man. Of course SD-winnings are important to work on, but IMO, non-SD and SD winnings are both equally important and I think not working on it is a big mistake that a lot of players make.
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      Nice 1 Faye6891!!

      Originally posted by Faye6891
      And before I finish my post let me just comment on something Ka0s posted:
      "SD-winings are more important to work on."

      I really disagree with you man. Of course SD-winnings are important to work on, but IMO, non-SD and SD winnings are both equally important and I think not working on it is a big mistake that a lot of players make.
      I didn't mean to give little importance to nonsd-winnings, I just think for beginning players it's best to focus on the basics and a little beyond of sd-winnings first. I think betting for value is really something that's of first importance and an area where a lot of mistakes are made, especially on the river. I wouldn't mind beginners folding in some marginal spots while they're working on this. But when you got a solid understanding and experience of all that, sure, go ahead and do what you said.


      Originally posted by Faye6891
      I've managed to get my "non-SD winnings" above my "actual winnings" in the last 12K-13K hands.
      I bet you're one very aggressive pokerplayer :tongue:
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by Ka0s
      I didn't mean to give little importance to nonsd-winnings, I just think for beginning players it's best to focus on the basics and a little beyond of sd-winnings first.
      I agree with you here but I think a lot of players just focus on the basics for too long (I know I did) and IMO it's very important to start thinking about these things from the beginning, even if you don't actually apply them from the very beginning, if you at least think about them you'll eventually start finding some spots here and there as your skills get better.

      Originally posted by Ka0s
      Originally posted by Faye6891
      I've managed to get my "non-SD winnings" above my "actual winnings" in the last 12K-13K hands.
      I bet you're one very aggressive pokerplayer :tongue:
      Nah... :s_rolleyes:

      I've just been putting myself in a lot of tough spots in big pots OOP... good for learning I think... but definetely not good for your BR when done excessively... like I've been doing. :f_ugly: