Odds and Outs and :(

    • p0rkus
      p0rkus
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2009 Posts: 230
      I wish it explained a little bit more in the odds and outs section - I am a little confused.

      I have read all the bronze and basic now and have made charts for all the chartable stuff but odds and outs for me is a little confusing.


      So ok its abvious about calling with the right odds when you know/assume you are behind but how does this fit it to the fact that onkelhotte writes in the basic flop turn river play etc.. that you bet/raise a OESD/Flush/d,guts + and raise/re-raise a monster draw - is this for protection and then giving the opponent the wrong odds, or jsut to put more money coz u win only 1/3 of the time etc......????

      I think you more experienced people understand me - I am lost but i know what im looking for so please supply it :)

      or maybe silver articles explain everything better....... HELP MEH :)


      OOO - and someone tell me when it says you bluff on the flop with two villains or less if you ''raised'' on the pre-flop - I always uderstood this as you ''raised last and no one re-raised after you on the pre-flop'' - amiright?
  • 7 replies
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      The idea behind raising strong draws is to disguise your hand a bit. If you only raise with made hands then it becomes easy for an opponent to get a read on your hand. This kind of play can also be considered a semi-bluff. When you do this on the button it opens up the possibility of checking behind on the turn, giving you a "free card", meaning that paid an extra small bet on the flop with your raise in order to save calling a big bet on the turn - this basically saves you 1 SB to see the river card. The free card raise works best against passive players and the semi-bluff works against players who can find a fold, if you raise draws too much against the wrong type of player then you're just beating your head against the wall. :p

      The second part you have it right. If you ''raised last and no one re-raised after you on the pre-flop'' then you have the initiative going to the flop. Against 1-2 players a continuation bet can win the pot often enough to be profitable in many situations, and it also serves as a way to disguise the strength of your hand.
    • p0rkus
      p0rkus
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2009 Posts: 230
      I notived another thing (thanks salami for your input) :

      How is the odds from flop to the river section usefulll for FL?

      and a samll thingy - gutshot is 11:1 but always described as 10:1 in begginer?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by p0rkus
      I notived another thing (thanks salami for your input) :

      How is the odds from flop to the river section usefulll for FL?

      and a samll thingy - gutshot is 11:1 but always described as 10:1 in begginer?
      Hi p0rkus,

      it's almost never used as you can't be allin as you can in NL. Sometimes something different is used. For example with a set you will see the river as you have 10 outs to improve on the turn to the river so here the outs from the flop and turn are added 7 + 10 outs.

      Can you give me the link where it says 10:1? 11:1 is correct but often you have implied odds so you can add a few BB to the pot (doesn't change the 11:1 but can bbe expressed that way to not confront beginners with implied potodds).
    • p0rkus
      p0rkus
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2009 Posts: 230
      well it says it throughout the flop play and it says it throughout the turn play on page http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/235/3/
      of flop and page

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/236/2/

      of turn play.

      and about the 10 + 7 with a set...... WHAT? (lol)
    • fapaja
      fapaja
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2009 Posts: 1,258
      Poker is a complex game. In the Basic Level articles there are lots of simplified examples to make it easier for the absolute beginner. In the micro-limit games preflop desicions are vital to get you out of trouble. Postflop it's often enough to make "almost-right desicions".
      When you are still busy, choosing the right start hands, postflop play needs to be as simple as possible. It's easier to estimate 1/10 of the pot and it is accurate enough to make a descent desicion.
      The standard plays in the Basic Level will make you a small profit or at least break even in the first limit. This makes it possible for you to get experience from playing during the time you study the more complex aspects of the game.

      The Bronze Level articles dig a bit deeper in to theory of poker and gives more accurate information, although they are somewhat simplified as well. You will find more and more as you progress through the levels here at PokerStrategy.

      Hope this helps! :)
    • p0rkus
      p0rkus
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2009 Posts: 230
      Another thing i dont understand - the pot is lets say 10SB and thus we are on the flop

      You have overcards and are sure that if one of them hits you will win.

      someone bets and you have to call 1:11 which is good odds ofr overcards but then after you call someone raises and the other guy also calls (three people left on the flop) so nowthere are 14SB in the pot and technically you have only to call another 1SB into a pot of 14SB....

      OR?

      Is it that you count the 1SB you put in so you assume its paying 2SB into a pot of 14SB and thus having only 1:7 instead of 1:14????

      Please help again guys :)

      EDIT - One more thing, for some reason I am too tired to understand this right now but, and this is kinda related to the above question, if you get the right odds to call on the flop, and then the turn doesnt really help you but you then further have the right odds to call turn and see river assuming that your outs are clean do you still call - basically, do we always assume that the money we put beforehand into the pot is no longer ours?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Alright so the 10:1 for a gutshot is a simplyfication as I mentioned above.

      Originally posted by p0rkus
      Another thing i dont understand - the pot is lets say 10SB and thus we are on the flop

      You have overcards and are sure that if one of them hits you will win.

      someone bets and you have to call 1:11 which is good odds ofr overcards but then after you call someone raises and the other guy also calls (three people left on the flop) so nowthere are 14SB in the pot and technically you have only to call another 1SB into a pot of 14SB....

      OR?

      Is it that you count the 1SB you put in so you assume its paying 2SB into a pot of 14SB and thus having only 1:7 instead of 1:14????

      Please help again guys :)

      EDIT - One more thing, for some reason I am too tired to understand this right now but, and this is kinda related to the above question, if you get the right odds to call on the flop, and then the turn doesnt really help you but you then further have the right odds to call turn and see river assuming that your outs are clean do you still call - basically, do we always assume that the money we put beforehand into the pot is no longer ours?
      11:1 and 14:1 is correct. The problem is that you have to think about the risk being raised before you put in the first bet. If you think that there will be a raise behind you everytime you call then 7:1 are the correct potodds. So if there are opponents behind you you need better odds for a call than if you are last to act.

      To your last question: Yes that is exactly what we do. :)