Hints and Teachings to Learn SH?

    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      EDIT: I meant to say shorthanded not shortstack. Thanks!

      Hey. I am just learning the Shorthanded and although there is some info on it, there just isn't enough preflop material for me. What are some good reads or vids that aren't on PS that are worthwhile learning. Also, what are some personal hints of yours and things that you may have messed up that can save me a few dollas? Thanks!

      PS: Don't say watch videos and go to coachings, that has already been done.

      Thank you!
  • 42 replies
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
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      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Don't save the few dollars. Just play! :D You'll get some experience this way. SSS is swingy, think twice before starting if you are concerned about the "few dollars".
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
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      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
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      Originally posted by thedahl
      Hey. I am just learning the Shortstack strategy and although there is some info on it, there just isn't enough preflop material for me. What are some good reads or vids that aren't on PS that are worthwhile learning. Also, what are some personal hints of yours and things that you may have messed up that can save me a few dollas? Thanks!

      PS: Don't say watch videos and go to coachings, that has already been done.

      Thank you!
      Have you tried reading the blogs of the SSS players on this site?
    • MrPavlos
      MrPavlos
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      Joined: 12.02.2009 Posts: 553
      Fold KK/QQ pre so u wont get suckedout that much :f_biggrin:

      That will save u some dollarz...

      Cheers
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      EDIT: I meant to say SH not SSS thank you.
    • 8979687
      8979687
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      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      Originally posted by MrPavlos
      Fold KK/QQ pre so u wont get suckedout that much :f_biggrin:

      That will save u some dollarz...

      Cheers
      What site and limit and style do you play please?
      I would love to play at your tables.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Ok short-handed is highly dependend on the opponent when it comes to pre-flop and flop game.

      We usually have 4 types (roughly) at the tables. TAGs, LAGs, Rocks and passive fish.
      You will need a tracker to indentify then.

      Beginning with rocks 14/12 or so.... they are the easiest to play against.. they play very straightforward pocker, raise a very tight range.. c-bet that range almost 100% and will give up turn unimproved. You can call pre-flop with a hand you like IP, float the flop as long as it does not precisly hit him and if he checks turn bet. He will give up a lot of times. You can also avoid that player altogether if you want, he raises so little hands, its like if he is not there. Also if he is in the blinds, just steal from him with a wide range of hands.

      Next is the TAG... he is like we are. 24/22 to 18/16 or so. They are somewhat more difficult to play against. Pre-flop you can call them with hands wich have good equity against their range. They will also c-bet a lot, but more selective. They are also capable of second barreling and have a pretty good grasp of the game. Your table image is pretty important here.. they have to respect your game if you want to steal pots from them. I don't advise a float against them anymore since they know what that is and can c/r you on the turn on purpose as defense.
      Pre-flop I like calling these guys with suited connectors, any hand which makes my post-flop play easy. I will also start 3-betting them more lightly. The higher their pre-flop raise percentage is the wider your 3-bet can be. They will respect the 3-bet because they don't like playing OOP vs another TAG in 3-bet pots.
      Flop I will float them with top pair for pot-control. They are agressive, why raise if they might second barrel whatever they have? You can decide on the turn or river if your hand is good enough for show-down vs them.

      K then we have have LAG, ca. 35/30 or so. He is unpredictable with starting hands so I won't get into it. He raises like low suited connectores in UTG etc. So what do we do? We 3-bet him with like almost every hand we want to play against him IP. OOP we rather fold unless we got something really strong to 3-bet. LAGs want to see a lot of cheap flops, they hate 3-bet pots where they are OOP... and their game changes. All of a sudden their aggression goes away and they become passive or super straight forward.
      Don't ever just call IP vs a LAG... he will crush your TP with some kind of weird 2-pair or so post-flop if your all-in. You cannot trap him because he seems like a maniac.. good LAGs have very controlled aggression since they know what you hold.
      Oh and if a LAG c/r you post-flop he most likely has you crushed somehow, unless you really hold the nuts.. but something like AA, KK or TPTK is probably crushed.
      Because of LAG style you want to avoid being OP vs them.. they call with just too many hands. But they are capable of folding a lot of their hands when you place good c-bets on suitable boards and the occasional second barrel or c/r to their floats.

      Last is the fish... 40+VPIP and 10-PFR. These guys just call.. check... call etc.
      Just play for value. Don't ever bluff... dont ever get mad (they will chase gutshots like if its the nuts!!! dont ask me why).. if there is a draw... and they c/c you all the way and the draw completes just check behind.
      Oh they will donk bet into you occasionally... to "test" your hand with like half sized bets or something, because they somewhere read some strategy about semi-bluffs or something (don't ask)... just raise it even if you don't really have anything for showdown on the flop. They will fold more often then not. If they call well your up against any sort of pair or draw, they will almost 100% check the turn... you can try to take it away now by placing a standard bet. If they bet again however they do have something, if you have TP just call now if the bet is not to precise and re-evaluate the river.

      K lastly.. for all of your decisions be very aware where these players are at your table. Like you cannot float call a rock, or isolate limpers having a weaker range with maniacs and LAGs behind you. You also have to be aware who is in the blinds.. if you have a TAG in the BB and you a rock or a TAG raise UTG and you want to call with like 89s, BB might squeeze.
      You can also use other things to your advantage... like is a TAG isolating a fish form the BU? If so his range is weak and you can 3-bet lighter from the BB taking it down a lot of times. Or are you 3-betting LAG raises too much, LAG might react and start calling more.

      Just keep everything balanced and always be aware of you position, table image and who else is playing. Oh and keep a watch out for stack sizes... we sometimes start stealing automatically while multitabling not seing the shorty in the BB.. sucks if he pushes etc.
      This is also important when adjusting to LAGs etc... if its like a half stacked LAG or short maniac we goto ignore him until we can put him all-in pre. 3-bets vs him just commit him so tighten up you range again.


      Just go play for a while and enjoy the game. Not sure what stakes you play but every limit has different betting patterns people use to try to gain value from their monsters. You just goto spot them. Most players where we play are fish... LAG are also a form of fish at these stakes since I don't believe they really know what they are doing yet and how we can exploit them. Just watch out for regs who have TAG stats. You will normally devide the entire table between you two and take them all out clashes between you two are minimal. Leave the table when you get like 3 TAGs... its just not profitable unless they got some big leaks or you want to work on your game vs them.

      Cheers, hope this helps. Just what I picked up over the time I played.
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      Thanks for that amazing post Drager! What do you recommend for buy-ins because I am at NL2 and am getting anxious to move up but with only having $60 I know I still have much time.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      20BI for the micros is fine if you can beat them. If you unsure about your game you might need more. Continue with NL2 till you have 100$ minimum.

      Btw in the micros... you can play straight forward vs a lot of players. They have almost no knowledge of the game at all. Most bluff plays don't work. That part about raising small donk bets might still work, however since players there also have no clue about bet-sizing he might actually have top pair when he bets like 1/3 pot haha. You just goto adjust and find out. Try plays only when your sure how your opponent plays his hands and if he is capable of folding.

      I think they are all mostly calling stations, but I haven't been at those tables for a long time. Oh and they mostly do not bluff either I think.. you don't have to try to catch bluffs, so big bets or raises etc. should be respected.. especially the c/min-raise.

      But you can get a lot of value from them I think.. they call with like 2nd pair etc.

      Oh and... you opponents are not capable of pre-flop plays. There will be no light 3-bets vs you, no squeezes etc. :) . That just comes later on.
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      I love your answers- so I am going to continue to ask questions.

      You say play standard but I am not 100% sure which hands are worth playing preflop. For example UTG I would play A10, but usually not A9. Could you give me the worst hands you should play preflop against 5 unkowns in the different positions.

      Thanks again! :heart:
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Ha hard question.... I don't really know. I never really gave that much thought into exact starting hand charts. I only remember UTG and I treat MP1 as UTG because I play 5-max not 6-max
      If they are unkown I'd rather play a bit tighter in the beginning

      UTG... AJ+, JQ+ (not KJ.. I hate that hand, stopped raising it.. it plays really weirdly post-flop) 22+
      MP1... A9+, JQ+, 22+
      CO... 89s+, A7+, 22+
      BU... 45s+, A2s+, A6o+, 22+
      SB... (first in) 78s+, A2s+, A2o+, 22+.. all face cards. (vs BU raiser to 3-bet) TT+ (k some ppl will argue that this should be lower, and yeah I play it lower... but your playing NL2.. I am not sure exactly how they steal there, just adjust), AQ+
      BB (vs sb complete raise), Ax, 22+ (vs BU steal to 3-bet) same as SB, maybe a bit loser

      K here is the thing with starting hands... the moment you feel like you lose your edge post-flop with any starting hand above drop that hand immidiatly. You only play hands, especially first in, you would feel confident in playing OOP vs the opponent who calls and hence you adjust accordingly to calling frequency and vs how good they are post-flop. IP you will get more and more lose the more confident you get in your game, especially with isolation raises. When I first began SH I limped behind a lot of hands because I was not confident playing post-flop. Now I raise all of those hands. Basically the more confident you become vs the players at your table the more hands you play with and hence your starting hands charts change.

      Thats the reason I don't really have one.. just basic guidelines. I raised 45s from the CO ones because I felt like it and had calling stations in the blinds. Had I had a calling station in the BU I would not have done it. But because he was in the BB I outplayed him post-flop with 5 high.

      Just remember to play most of your hands IP and you will be fine even if you raise mediocre hands. You will win a lot of small pots that way + noone can really know when you actually do have a monster and when not.
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      Great as usualy! I'm just going to continue to quiz you.

      When should you limp in? Do you raise Kx to an unraised pot late?
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Limp in never....
      If you limp first in you have wasted that blind.

      Limp behind, yeah there are some situations. For example your BU and have like a medium suited connector... and you have 2-3 limpers before you who are fish, basically you assume that if you raise they will call. The pot would just be way to big for your hand now if you raise. You could limp behind to see the flop cheaply or fold. I do not like this however, I'd rather complete the SB then to limp behind in the BU because limped pots give you those stupid temptations to steal them when your BU and flop like top pair weak kicker etc.. They are hard to play because villain can have any 2. I have lost pots where I was BB, flop trips vs some opponent and lose a BI because he has FH or gets FH turn or so. Limped pots can be ugly.

      And about raising.. its best to isolate 1 limper. Like I can isolate with like A5+, suited connectors, any face cards, 22+, etc. if I am in late position. Just goto be sure how often people behind you call and losen or tighten the range accordingly. Like if UTG limps your MP1 isolation range will be much tighter then if UTG limps, everyone folds and your in the BU. Oh also look at limpers VPIP to determine exactly what he limps in and be aware that if his PFR is really low villain will even limp in hands like KJ or AT, a lot of Ax etc. So you just goto be carefull postflop.

      When there are 2 or more limpers you have to tighten the range a lot more. This is because if limper 1 calls your raise, limper 2 gets good pot odds to call 2.. and then you got this massive pot with like A5s and thats not something you really want even IP because more often then not 1 of them hits something. Isolate 2 or more with like A9+, TJ+, 22+ etc.
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      You have helped me reassure my gameplan, thanks alot!
    • MrPavlos
      MrPavlos
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      Joined: 12.02.2009 Posts: 553
      Originally posted by 8979687
      Originally posted by MrPavlos
      Fold KK/QQ pre so u wont get suckedout that much :f_biggrin:

      That will save u some dollarz...

      Cheers
      What site and limit and style do you play please?
      I would love to play at your tables.
      no sense of humor? :f_confused:

      Stars NL50 sss atm
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      Oooh one more fantastic great question: how do you decide table selection for SH without stats?
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Check for high player seen flop with and medium to big pots.

      Do not sit down with a lot of short stacks and leave tables when you feel that someone dominates you constantly when you play him OOP, unless you feel like although he is winning a lot of small pots from you, you can stack him since he is too agro in the long run.
    • thedahl
      thedahl
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 270
      When you steal pots should you steal with 3BB on the button and 4 everywhere else?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by thedahl
      When you steal pots should you steal with 3BB on the button and 4 everywhere else?
      Depends. You can minraise BU with ATC if there are nits in blinds, but if there's fish, i'd just raise 4x.