Poker Trek 3: The Search For Value

    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Okay.. a new FL blog for me (yes I am greedy, no I don't care).. this one is intended to be a discipline inducing + theory discussion thread aimed at reviewing article content and related or interesting hands.

      It's a little inspired by caltabiano/dandycal's blog in that I love the way they they take the time to review the theory and EV calcs in their blog. Of course, with BSS/SSS the hands they review are one of two or three interesting spots they go through every 20k hands. :f_p:

      Sorry guys, I'm just blinkered.. I've only played a little FR (approx 5k hands each) using each strategy, but it's like playing on valium after FL SH!

      The title is a little contrived as it's not really my third attempt at building through the limits... but "Poker Trek 2: The Wrath of Value" doesn't really work. Perhaps Poker Trek 2 was "The Wrath of Variance and Leaks"? :f_eek:

      So, how will this work?

      I'm intending to update once a week with notes and/or examples of different spots and how to play them. I would anticipate this being driven by article content, possibly quiz content.

      I think hand analysis will form as big a part of the posts as theory posts. In particluar, I intend that any hands posted here are dissected and analysed to bits. So all hands I post will conform with the following:

      - stats on all villians with an active part in the hand.
      - for each and every street a considered hand range for each villian with an active part in the hand and a note of our equity v those hand ranges.
      - a note for each street on the line I'm intending to take and why, or if unsure, what options I am considering.

      Ultimately, these hands will also be posted in the eval boards to get a hand judges view.

      I guess this may sound a bit redundant as the eval boards already perform this function.. but the idea is that these hands should relate to the theory currently being discussed so it becomes a way of (hopefully) identifying leaks in certain situations.

      One downside of the eval boards is they don't group types of hands to allow the hundreds of examples to be viewed in one context. Eg how to play the river with a middle pair on a board showing one overcard.

      Hopefully this makes some sort of sense. If not I guess this thing will be fluid and, I'm sure, develop as I go along till hopefully it does become useful (or disappears into the obscurity of blog threads appearing in "Pages: next>>";) .
  • 8 replies
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      When I saw thread title I knew it's your blog! :)

      Originally posted by Waiboy
      ... in that I love the way they they take the time to review the theory and EV calcs in their blog. Of course, with BSS/SSS the hands they review are one of two or three interesting spots they go through every 20k hands. :f_p:
      LOL

      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Sorry guys, I'm just blinkered.. I've only played a little FR (approx 5k hands each) using each strategy, but it's like playing on valium after FL SH!.
      LOL again. So TRUE. I didn't even try SSS, because it's probably even more boring than BSS is :)
      But... Maybe there is something about this thing called "no limit"...

      (click for bigger picture, didn't want to spoil your start of a thread with huge graph :) )


      Good luck with a new blog! :)
    • jmackenzie
      jmackenzie
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2008 Posts: 1,245


      When you gunna realize he just doesnt love you back Waiboy? he just doesnt love you.
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      good thread! I'll be contributing here. I've recently also started doing more theory. making calculations and stuff! Did my first real equilator analysis a week ago :D
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      This thread is a good idea Waiboy! Maybe you could use some of those filters we tried out to get some examples for the thread, in any case I'll be sure to check up on and post some replies to the hands here :P
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hey folks, thanks for the responses (except for you JMack... no need to bring all those repressed memories to the fore.. he does love me, he can change!, he doesn't really mean it...).

      DB - excellent! Any contributions welcome! As is your offer of a sweat session.. these are (mostly) beneficial for both parties - in much the same way as commenting on hand evals can be beneficial.

      TB - re the filters, exaclty the sort of thing I had in mind. Plus any input you can provide will be awesome for those of us struggling with our games or just looking to refine what game we have!

      After mulling things over for a day or so I think the first two subjects I would like to tackle are:

      - The anatomy of a sweat session.

      Ideas for an optimal way of structuring sweat sessions in order to get the most benefit from the time for both parties. I have a few ideas I think will be useful and hopefully the discussion will promote more of these sessions to occur, and to provide maximum benefit when they do.

      - River play - maximising value with bet/call, raise/call lines.

      I think that I want to start the theoretical discussion from this end. I know pre flop, flop and turn considerations all play an important part, but I feel like starting things off at the business end of the hand.

      Missed value bets/raises (a significant leak for me I suspect) on the river are an area where I hope solid improvements can be made.

      I'm intending to mark any hands and review hand histories (if I can manhandle PT3 filters to give me the info I want!) to find interesting spots and analyse them with reference back to the theory review. Given I tend to move with glacial speed when it comes to poker study (and possibly this reflects my outstanding success of late) I'm not sure when this stuff will surface.. at this stage I'm intending to apply some time early - mid next week.

      It may be I start a post then edit it as I get time to review.. in which case I'll include "IN PROGRESS" in the post header.

      Once completed, I'll start stuffing in some properly broken down and analysed hands. To this end I'll try and make notes in PT3 on my marked hands after each session so I can review my thought process in light of the theory review.

      I'm gonna review the Gold advanced river play article, and dig out my Silver river play article notes, along with any other info and try and summarise some key points.

      UPCOMING:

      i. I guess to round out the river play aspect the next topic will address the check/call v bet/fold lines.

      ii. Flop equity - what equity do we have with different types of hands v our opponents hand ranges and on different flop textures? For example overcards, middle/bottom pairs with weak draws ie 2 pair/trips/gutshot/back door draws.

      Meh, that'll do. I'll get more ambitious if this first blush attempt provides any solid result. As it is, I think this sounds awesome, so I hope I actually follow through with it! :f_eek:
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Meh, that'll do. I'll get more ambitious if this first blush attempt provides any solid result. As it is, I think this sounds awesome, so I hope I actually follow through with it! :f_eek:
      [ x ] EPIC FAIL

      Alright. I've been doin' a bit of study recently *ignores gasps from crowd*. I've decided to put the stuff I'm attempting to concentrate on in here, and hopefully either help out other struggling FL heroes, or promote some corrective lens responses if I'm getting wayward in any of my thinking.

      Current project: Perfecting pre flop play.

      I've always thought my pre flop play was solid. How hard can it be, reading off a chart? Of course, I was in denial.

      So I'm currently working on plugging the various spots where leaks may occur. As part of this I'm moving to using the approx charts so that I'm adjusting my ranges more correctly based on my opponents likely hand ranges.

      The first area of focus is:

      Calling from the Big Blind facing an open raiser and one caller

      I haven't been playing to a specific strategy when in the big blind facing a raise and at least one of our loose/passive limping friends. Given the ideal situation is to be on the direct left of a loose/passive player, this is a significant leak.

      So, after a bit of badly directed guesswork and lack of effort on my part, I went to the boards. This is the thread here.

      If we are in the Big Blind, according to the gold Pre-flop: Starting hands - expert theory article, we need at least 70% of the average equity to call from the Big Blind (and including hands we should 3 bet with, which is raiser position dependent).

      So in the situation we are considering with our friend cold calling, the situation is:

      Average equity 3 handed = 33%
      Equity required = 33%*70% ~= 23%

      I ran a simulation through the Equilator using the following ranges:

      TAG, MP2: 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+
      Estimated calling range (exludes TAG 3 bet hands), SB: 66-22, A9s-A5s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, KQo, QJo, JTo

      That gives the following range (note this differs slightly to the thread range as that simulation was incorrectly based on a 20% equity requirement):

      Pairs: 22+
      Suited: A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 84s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s
      Offsuit: A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, 76o+

      ciRith offered the following range, adjusted for playability in a multiway pot:

      Pairs: 22+
      Suited: A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J6s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s
      Offsuit: A2o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T9o, 98o, 87o

      Okay, that's all for today. Any comments are welcome. For any technical issues I will summarise, then transfer questions arising back into the FL Strategy board thread. :f_grin:
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      why no Q8o in cirith's range? Is it worse than J8o in this spot?
      Just wondering :)
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by DarthBobo
      why no Q8o in cirith's range? Is it worse than J8o in this spot?
      Just wondering :)
      I guess it's a playability thing - an offsuit 3 gapper is better multiway than an offsuit 4 gapper?

      WRONG! It's a straight out equity thang.

      http://www.PokerStrategy.com
      Operation canceled... 2,994,078,105 games processed in 05:24 minutes.

      Board:
      Dead:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 37.630 % 37.212 % 0.993 % 61.795 % 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+
      Player 2: 30.631 % 29.761 % 1.896 % 68.343 % 66-22, A9s-A5s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, KQo, QJo, JTo
      Player 3: 31.739 % 31.131 % 1.373 % 67.496 % J8o


      ----------------------------------------


      http://www.PokerStrategy.com
      Operation canceled... 2,950,703,562 games processed in 05:21 minutes.

      Board:
      Dead:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 38.493 % 38.069 % 0.987 % 60.944 % 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+
      Player 2: 30.661 % 29.838 % 1.786 % 68.376 % 66-22, A9s-A5s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, KQo, QJo, JTo
      Player 3: 30.846 % 30.307 % 1.216 % 68.477 % Q8o