2nd barrel against fish

    • adr0001
      adr0001
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      There are some loose players that almost never fold to a cbet if the flop doesn't have high cards. A solution when I'm playing with this kind of player is cbet less. But how about double barrel more? Many of these flop calls are speculative. The fish calls the cbet to see what I'm doing on the turn. Even a fish knows that most of the time I will miss the flop and that it's more likely to have overcards than a made hand. So they call with their small and middle pairs, overcards, draws to see if I will bet again on the turn. There are many weak-tight players who give up after a failed c-bet and the fish can easily steal the pot from them. If I bet again on the turn there are big chances they will fold their overs or small pairs. If the turn is a blank or a scare card like a K or A I think 2nd barrels can be very profitable. Also many players are loose only preflop and on the flop but tighten up on the turn.
      What do you think about 2nd barrel more turns against fish?
  • 9 replies
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Depends on the board.

      Yeah I will second barrel scare cards, I will not second barrel if the turn card does not change much. It would just be a bet without having any real info about opponents hand.

      Rather give up hands vs fish or let them outplay themselfs when I do have a hand. I don't like to mess around so much just to win a pot against them.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by Dragar
      I will not second barrel if the turn card does not change much. It would just be a bet without having any real info about opponents hand.
      The idea is that a part of his calling range will be flush and straight draws. If the flop is 8 J 2 any 7,9,T,Q completes straight draws or gives him a pair. He can have on the flop hands like 97, T9, T7, Q9 or QT. Let's say the turn is a T. Now T7, QT and T9 have a pair and 97 and Q9 have a straight. If the turn is a 9, hands like 97, T9 and Q9 have a pair and hands like T7 and QT have a straight. So I think turns that completes straight draws are the worst turns to 2 barrel. They are worse than turns that completes flush draws because there are more straight draw combos than flush draw combos in villain's range.
      I don't like to 2 barrel if a str8 or flush draw completes on the turn because it hits my opponent's range.

      Originally posted by Dragar
      Rather give up hands vs fish or let them outplay themselfs when I do have a hand. I don't like to mess around so much just to win a pot against them.
      The problem is if I give up too many hands against fish I will be the fish, not them. Another problem, when the flop has an A or K, they fold a lot because they know there are good chances I have TP. So when I hit TP with A or K they'll outplay themselves only if they have the same TP with a weacker kicker.

      I guess it's read dependent. There are some calling stations that aren't going to fold on the turn a weak hand, there are other players who call a lot preflop and on the flop, but are tight on the turn.
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
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      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      I'd say it;s fish-dependend :f_biggrin:
    • phpps
      phpps
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      Joined: 30.01.2008 Posts: 109
      As stated in the other posts there are way too many factors to be considered here. There is a really good article in the strategy section about 2nd and 3rd barrell but you need the gold status. First thing to consider imo is position. If you are oop then forget it unless playing a strong draw. If in position then 2nd barrell scare cards, timing tells, weak TAG players, rocks. DO NOT 2nd barrell call stations, weak LAG and especially maniacs or NITs. As well bet size is very important cause you dont want to appear weak or too overy aggressive and most important you dont want to invest too much in the pot.
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
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      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      adr0001, I'm curious, what stakes/gametype are we talking about? I think that matters too. I'm a fan of always including this stuff in the question.

      Why is poker so complicated :rolleyes: , never an easy answer :) .
      Indeed so many factors to be consider and so many possible 'solutions'.

      You seem to be talking about floating fish? Call a lot of flops in position and bet turn when checked to? I would be thinking of mixing in some turn check-raises with strong hands and strong draws on the turn, but also with some weaker hands. Maybe delayed cbets but that's really tricky.

      If the fish is just a calling station it might help to just play less (and thus better) hands and take him to valuetown. Not as much fun maybe, but if he doesn't realize or care you tightened up ...


      Oh wait, I'm even thinking of some decent answer now :D :

      I think the best thing to do is to understand better which particular mistakes this player/fish is making (all the time) and then respond with a strategy that takes the most advantage of those mistakes.
      This seems obvious, but you really need to define the mistakes as good as you can.
      Is he calling too much? Is he betting too often, too much or too less? Does he get too aggressive when you back down? With what hands (weak/semi-strong/strong) is he doing certain things? Is he careful on certain types of boards? does he bluff too much? Does he call too much when you raise? ... Well I'll stop now :D .

      Wow I'm teaching myself here lol.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      I'm talking about 6max micro games from fishy sites. On Fulltilt it seems to me that the players fold more to cbets than on other sites and are not so aggressive if they don't have a hand.

      Originally posted by Ka0s
      You seem to be talking about floating fish? Call a lot of flops in position and bet turn when checked to?
      In position or OOP. Fish don't care much about position. If they call OOP most of the time they will bet the river if I check the turn. Or they may call my flop cbet OOP and then donk the turn.

      Originally posted by Ka0s
      If the fish is just a calling station it might help to just play less (and thus better) hands and take him to valuetown. Not as much fun maybe, but if he doesn't realize or care you tightened up ...
      I tighten up against them but even if I play tight most of the time I will miss the flop. And I hate to raise preflop AK or KQ and then c/fold on the flop. Or to hit TPTK and see them fold. I hate even more to raise preflop, cbet the flop and c/f the turn.

      I was thinking of cbet less, but 2nd barrel more when I decide to cbet because it shows more strength. Many players cbet 100% of flops but then give up if their cbet is called. This is very exploitable.
      Even in Ryan Fee's guide it says to don't cbet everytime, but to 2nd barrel most of the time when you decide to cbet. He said that betting the flop and c/fing the turn is suppose to me more of a rarity than a common place. I don't know, though, if that guide is applicable to micro stakes. I think he's speaking more about small stakes.
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
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      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      Originally posted by adr0001
      I was thinking of cbet less, but 2nd barrel more when I decide to cbet because it shows more strength.
      Yeah nothing much I can add to the previous posts. It depends on the board texture, drawy/scarecards etc.

      I don't know you or how well you play, but did you consider that it could also just be you are running bad postflop?
      I know I've had times where I just didn't seem to be able to win a hand. Table full of fish, but you just can't freakin' win. Frustrating as hell. You hit nothing, and even when you do, most of the time somebody sucks out or has a better hand. These are times I start to play bad if I'm not beware. I'm loosing confidence in my game, start to think everybody's bluffing me etc.
      By running bad I don't only mean that you don't hit much, but also that your opponent does hit a lot.
      And then there are also times I feel like a pokergod, playing very well but also things that are out of your control happen at the right moment (you're just not aware).
      And then there is everything in between.

      Long story, but realize it can but doesn't have to be your game that causes the trouble.


      Edit:
      I think c-betting 100% is very wrong too. I also think c-betting every time you do hit is not always the best way but never wrong.

      If you really want to work on some things and posting hands doesn't work out you could record a session if you think it's worth the trouble. I, but hopefully some better players too, would share thoughts on it.
      Or try to find somebody to sweat you (there's a thread for this somewhere).


      greetz :f_cool:
    • adr0001
      adr0001
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by Ka0s
      did you consider that it could also just be you are running bad postflop?
      Yes, sometimes I am running bad postflop. Happily I don't play at only one site and usually when I'm running bad at a site I continue to play at other site.

      Before I made this thread I made some succesful 2nd barrels. Maybe I was result-oriented.

      Originally posted by Ka0s
      Edit:
      I also think c-betting every time you do hit is not always the best way but never wrong.
      I like this idea. 2 good things can happen if you check sometimes with good hands, planning to raise a bet from your opponent:
      1. he can tilt because I check-raise him, and call my c-raise with weak hands. A tricky opponent who has initiative and then checks the next street and raises my bet always tilts me and I tend to make lighter calls against him.
      2. next time when I miss the flop and decide to not make a cbet and check (or after my cbet is called and I check the turn) he can give me a free card because he knows I am able to slowplay big hands.

      Also it's cheaper than making risky 2nd barrels.
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
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      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      Yes :) Your opponent could get on tilt, or just never be sure of anything. You can win some big pots this way.
      Just be aware of your image. I think sometimes the amount of thinking fish do is a bit underrated. I think a lot of them definitely can remember stuff :D .
      If for example, he called you down in some hand where you had him crushed, and a similar situation occurs later on, he might be more likely to fold that time. It might be he doesn't know why, but something doesn't feel right to him. So things like that can change the way you play a certain hand.
      By similar situation, I mean a similar board or just a similar betting sequence for example.

      Good to hear it's working out so far :f_cool: