[NL2-NL10] nl 100 VS limp-raise

    • gao20005
      gao20005
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2008 Posts: 3,134
      Should I call some of them or just call with JJ+ AK+?

      villain: vpip/pfr/af/hands 15/3/2.0/511
      3bet0.8% limp(mp) 6%
      [Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      play hand

      $0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $98.50
      BU:
      $73.65
      SB:
      $69.95
      BB(Hero):
      $20.00
      UTG2:
      $28.60
      MP1:
      $99.35
      MP2:
      $39.70
      MP3:
      $219.05


      Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, K.
      3 folds, MP3 calls $1.00, 2 folds, SB calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3.00, MP3 raises to $12.00, 2 folds.

      Final Pot: $18.









      villain: vpip/pfr/af/hands 31/5/1.2/96
      3bet0% limp(mp) 25%
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      play hand

      $0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      UTG2:
      $20.00
      MP1:
      $76.10
      MP2:
      $144.25
      MP3:
      $45.25
      CO(Hero):
      $20.00
      BU:
      $103.50
      SB:
      $100.50
      BB:
      $34.00


      Preflop: Hero is CO with T, T.
      3 folds, MP3 calls $1.00, Hero raises to $4.50, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $44.25(All-In), Hero folds.

      Final Pot: $51.25.









      villain: vpip/pfr/af/hands 15/6/3.6/995
      3bet(mp)3% limper (mp) 7%
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      play hand

      $0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $74.85
      CO:
      $160.55
      BU:
      $52.45
      SB:
      $45.20
      BB(Hero):
      $20.00
      UTG1:
      $20.00
      UTG2:
      $81.35
      MP1:
      $125.05
      MP2:
      $83.50


      Preflop: Hero is BB with J, A.
      4 folds, MP3 calls $1.00, 2 folds, SB calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3.00, MP3 raises to $19.00, 2 folds, MP3 gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $6.
  • 12 replies
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      i call every single one of them just to know with what they're doing this ;)
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Limp/3bet normally screams Aces imo. Holdem Manager has a popup stat "Limp vs raise" which tells you the percentage they l/3bet. the lower that number the easier the fold :D

      Generally though KK+ sometimes JJ+ AK are good enough to call a limp/3bet with. Unless of course villain is some sort of 57/4 whale.


      In my experience Limp 3bet range are; 90% AA or KK+. 5% of the time JJ+ AK+ 5% of the time low-mid PP's and other random hands like J8s, 78o etc

      Oh, unfortunately you have to be wary of BU limp or SB complete/3bets too. I used to call those a bit too loose and got punished. (I never thought the move made sense so called lighter)
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      I would fold hands one and three and make a note on his limp/raising. I would call hand number two, since his overall looseness and the chance he's making this move with air give me the remaining equity for a hand a little below like TT.
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      In my experience Limp 3bet range are; 90% AA or KK+. 5% of the time JJ+ AK+ 5% of the time low-mid PP's and other random hands like J8s, 78o etc
      This shocked me. Where did you get that? Maybe you have a very distorted perception of your experience?

      I had a look in my DB at my last 150k hands (all above NL200 btw) and looked at EVERY single time i got limp/reraised from MP (since all villains in OP are in MP).

      I got limp/reraised from MP by:

      AA(3x), KK(1x), JJ(2x), AKo, AKs, TT, 88(3x), 77, 66(2x), 44(2x), 33, AQo, AJs, ATs, ATo, A6s, KQs, K3s, T9o.


      Perhaps my earlier statement makes more sense now.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Your information is totally unrepresentitive unless you got it all in every single time to the limp/3bet which would be a massive leak imo. I didn't explain myself properly though, I was talking about my recent experience versus tightish regs and exaggerating a tad too.

      I'm not saying that there are no people who limp/3bet lighter but when it comes to regs or semi-regs a lot of the time they are trapping with a strong range or turning low PP's into a bluff and/or random holdings that they didn't actually mean to limp.

      What Limits/ Sites do you play anyway? All SSS or some BSS too?

      btw; I never answered the question. I fold KQo, I really don't like that hand for calling a limp/3bet but call TT and depending on his Limp vs Raise stat call AJ also.
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Your information is totally unrepresentitive unless you got it all in every single time to the limp/3bet which would be a massive leak imo.
      It is representative, I folded only once in these situations (during the timeframe i looked up in the DB*).

      I don't consider it a leak, since if I get limp/reraised i need only 38% equity or less most of the time and against 44-AA (which seems to be the most popular limp/reraising range). I have that with (almost) every hand i isolate with (if it's not a SB-vs-BB-situation, but these are different anyway).

      Of course if I have some limp-reraising history with someone, then always calling is exploitable, but it rarely comes to that. (I make a note every time when someone limp/reraises me). Most of the limp/reraisers are fishy anyway.





      *there i played NL200-NL1k at Stars,FT,ipoker and Party. i played some BSS but not on these limits.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      What sort of regs where you calling these limp/3bets against? If you called the chances are you were not up against the sort of player that I was talking about who mostly only limp/3bets a very strong range.

      How long have you been playing? I don't remember seeing you around much before, where you active on the German forum or something?
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hey gao20005,

      I would fold hands 1 & 3, but I would go broke with hand 2 for the following reasons:

      In hand nr.2 your hand is much stronger than KQ/AJ in other twos and in hand nr.2 you are heads-up while in hand 1&3 villain 3-bets vs 2 opponents which represents more strength.

      In general, I find limp/raise stat very useful in similar situations. Without big sample size, I find loose-passive players holding a monster very often when they limp/raise and regulars that limp/raise UTG. Against those I go broke with AK/JJ+.

      However, regs that limp MP/LP and you raise them IP will mostly from my experience try to raise you with middle PPs which they can't play for set value and don't want to play OOP, but the have quite some equity against your isolation raises. Against those I will usually go broke with AQ+/99+.

      Another important thing is to always note down what was villain's holding when you see showdown.

      Regards,
      burek2000
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      What sort of regs where you calling these limp/3bets against? If you called the chances are you were not up against the sort of player that I was talking about who mostly only limp/3bets a very strong range.

      How long have you been playing? I don't remember seeing you around much before, where you active on the German forum or something?
      Even if we leave out the fishy players who are incredibly creative when it comes to limp/reraising: True, there are players who *only* limp/reraise with very strong hands. And sometimes you can identify them with HM (Active player details -> preflop cards -> limp reraise). But in my experience even most regs and semi-regs try a limp/reraise with a low pocket more often
      than they have AA.

      If you have a 9/2 type of player on your table who limp/reraises you, I would get suspicous. But then I'm more careful with raising him in the first place.

      Another point: especially when regs see that they have fold-equity with limp/reraising (like in your case), making such a move with low pockets is extremly profitable. So maybe if there was no shortstack folding anymore, they would return to only doing this with KK+; so i guess it's better for me if i STFU now ;) .





      SSS i play since 3/08. usually i post in the german forum, but there you need platinum to get access to the SSS-samplehands for NL400+.
      i guess that's why my friend wusaa also posts his hands here ;)
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
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      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      bronze is my highest status ever :)
    • goldflair03
      goldflair03
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.08.2008 Posts: 1,957
      lol german exil-shortstackers :heart:
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      i had another look at my DB:

      limp/reraising from EP occured much more often and is stronger.

      i counted: AA(8x), KK(8x), QQ(4x), JJ(6x), AK(18x), TT, 99(2x), 88(6x), 77(3x), 66, 55, 44, AQ(6x), AJ(2x), AT(5x), A9(2x), A8(2x), A7, KQ, KJ(3x), KT, K9, Q9, J2

      of course only fishy players limp/reraised the weaker holdings.