Why to use BRM

    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Ok, i guess it's time to give my modest contribution to this forum. I see a lot of confused players thinking how much BI to use and ask around. First of all it's essential to use some sort of money management, how much BI we'll see later... Everybody says the more BI the better but why?? I'll use some examples on NL.

      One of the problems, which you can't repair no matter what BRM you use is the following: you have 300$ so you move up a limit, you lose 1 BI but you have to win 2 back to be at 300$. For all the wtf?!?!'s around let's see... 300,01$ so move to NL10. If you lose now a BI you'll have 290,01$ so back to NL4. Since every BI is now 5$ you have to win the 10$ back so you'll have to win 2BI. Ugly, don't you think?

      I tought about this long and hard but it's the only thing i could find. Which is rather surprising for me since i have in mind the money management used in trading (risking a percentage of your account) where things get a little more tricky. So reasons for not using an agressive BRM? Because you'll switch limits more often. And you risk getting in the above situation more often. That's all. So it's a question of how big of a downswing you can get if you go to the bottom (NL2). I guess 5BI is to little but you could do the job with a 10BI bankroll. Or maybe you could use even 5BI if you don't mind depositing 10 bucks if you go broke. (haven't actually tried such an agressive BRM but i think i will with another account of mine).

      Of course agressive BRM is a bad idea to people who withdraw money periodically from their accounts or worse actually need it. And that is because the swings are just sick.

      So any opinions?
  • 24 replies
    • tcs35
      tcs35
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 3,583
      what i do is I move up to the limit when I have 110BI for the 100BI limit and then move down to the limit below with 100BI for that limit.
    • Joshquan
      Joshquan
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 479
      you wouldnt move down a limit after loosing just one buy-in at the new limit, that would be ridiculus and you would make no progress. The recomended is to move down when you have 30BI at the limit below you;

      You move from NL5 to NL10 when you have $300 (30x10)
      You move back down from NL10 to NL5 when you have $150 (5 x 30)

      However i think most people do move down alot sooner than this as to avoid loosing such large portions of the bankroll that they perhaps arnt ready for yet.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      This is better and i did this also. It's more unlikely to get an 11 BI swing (that's what you need to get in the same situation).
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      @ Joshquan, this is actually the worst BRM you can make and here is why. You have 150,01$ so you play NL5. You get up by 30BI so you have 300,01$ and move to NL10. You say you should sit here and move back to NL5 if you have 150 in your account. Problem is you only have to waste 15BI to get there since you play with 10$ a stack. So you are basically winning half that you're losing!!!
    • brian997
      brian997
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 475
      Originally posted by andreibalint
      @ Joshquan, this is actually the worst BRM you can make and here is why. You have 150,01$ so you play NL5. You get up by 30BI so you have 300,01$ and move to NL10. You say you should sit here and move back to NL5 if you have 150 in your account. Problem is you only have to waste 15BI to get there since you play with 10$ a stack. So you are basically winning half that you're losing!!!
      you need to reread the basic strategy article on BRM (here). It says to do exactly as Joshquan says.
    • steIIstuI
      steIIstuI
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,587
      I play SnG's and MTT's only and my BRM is:


      - 2% or 50 BI to start.
      - when I lose, I move down a limit when I have 60 BI for that limit (i.e. I play 5$ BI with a 250$ BR, so I move to 3$ BI when I have 180$).
      -when I win, I move up a limit when I have 50BI for the next limit (i.e. I play 5$ BI with a 250$ BR, so I move up to 10$ when I have 500$).

      The fee doesn't apply for BRM.


      It's pretty easy. If i just move to a higher limit and lose one BI, I don't just move back because I still have more than 60 BI for the next lower limit. (i.e I play 10$ BI with a 500$ BR, I lose one, so I have 489$, and to move down, I should have 300$).
    • shortfuse
      shortfuse
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 450
      Originally posted by Joshquan
      you wouldnt move down a limit after loosing just one buy-in at the new limit, that would be ridiculus and you would make no progress. The recomended is to move down when you have 30BI at the limit below you;

      You move from NL5 to NL10 when you have $300 (30x10)
      You move back down from NL10 to NL5 when you have $150 (5 x 30)

      However i think most people do move down alot sooner than this as to avoid loosing such large portions of the bankroll that they perhaps arnt ready for yet.
      This. Good explanation for newcomers and for the OP.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      brian997, i know that the articles say this but can you say that i was wrong? Just re-read what you quoted me and think about it. You win some BI lose the same number but you have LESS money in your account. Like magic!!! Go a little outside the box. I'm not saying anyone here what to do, i'm saying everyone should understand why the hell they are doing what they are doing. So give me better reasons to use that BRM...
    • shortfuse
      shortfuse
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 450
      Originally posted by andreibalint
      brian997, i know that the articles say this but can you say that i was wrong? Just re-read what you quoted me and think about it. You win some BI lose the same number but you have LESS money in your account. Like magic!!! Go a little outside the box. I'm not saying anyone here what to do, i'm saying everyone should understand why the hell they are doing what they are doing. So give me better reasons to use that BRM...
      you don't have to follow it if you don't want to! There is a trade-off between risk of losing and winning, it's up to you at the end of the day. I follow josh's method more or less btw.

      so far, thats 3 of us supporting one method.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      OP I just might be drunk... but I haven't understood anything you wrote ?(

      Sure the times when you go up a limit are crucial....

      But agro BRM is normally 20BI move up. 15 BI move down.

      Thats alright. Play well and you succeed.

      I don't like bankroll nits... if you are too conservative your just wasting time and money.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      ok shortfuse you are supporting this method. but why?!

      Does anybody actually understand what the hell i am saying here?
    • shortfuse
      shortfuse
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 450
      Originally posted by andreibalint
      ok shortfuse you are supporting this method. but why?!

      Does anybody actually understand what the hell i am saying here?
      no, because we are winning players
    • Alafoe
      Alafoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2008 Posts: 202
      I think its not good to have some "moving zone" from the reason original poster said. Its just more work to get zone up then zone down. I personally prefer breakpoint but even I cant stand it completely on higher limits when it hurts.

      Agressive management like 5BI is also possible. You can grow up on it really quickly. But you have to be very tilt free and respect your rules very strictly. It means never play with less than 5BI on the limit.

      It means when you have $6000 and play NL1000, loose one stack you have to say ... dont mind I move to NL500 just now. There is no room for tilt or no discipline. Sometimes it may happen you drop down to $4999 and say ... well i will earn that one dollar on the old limit its very close and in the next hand lose BI and get $3999 and then say so well it was bad beat and I dont want to build up all that 2BI on lower limit if there is so much fishes, i will move to deep table and get it back imediatelly. And when you lose to $1999 you may say well its time to gamble...
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      lol shortfuse, that's so shitty for you to say. remember i didn't started this post to give you the ocasion to prove how smart you are, i started it to understand and help others understand the ideas behind BRM. But thanks for your crucial contribution!

      Anyway, could a really experienced player get an eye here and say his opinion? Thanks.
    • Joshquan
      Joshquan
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 479
      andreibalint, you are looking at it from such a negative point of view, suggesting that you ARE going to loose them 15 buy-ins and ARE going to have to move back down a limit. Sometimes this will be the case but often you will progress and suceed at the new limit. The BRM allows you to loose 15Buy-ins before moving down to somewhat overcome variance and give you chance to see if yuo can make it work at the new limit.

      If you do reach the limit set to move down it may just be a downswing and you got unlucky but most likely your skill level is not quite up to the new limit yet and you have some work to do on your game. This is all part of your progression as a player and yes your bankroll may have taken a knock but you will have gained invaluable experience.

      If you moved up a limit how you are suggesting you would go NOWHERE with poker! Moving up with 6-buy-ins at the next level would mean you could move up by hitting a very small upswings and approach a new level upprepared and without the required skill level or experience of palying at the previous level. You could move up 2 or even 3 limits in the space of a few days, from say NL10 to NL50, you are then going to be way out of your depth and get out played left right and centre consequently loosing all you money that you have earned and back to square one at NL10.
    • steIIstuI
      steIIstuI
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,587
      Originally posted by Joshquan
      andreibalint, you are looking at it from such a negative point of view, suggesting that you ARE going to loose them 15 buy-ins and ARE going to have to move back down a limit. Sometimes this will be the case but often you will progress and suceed at the new limit. The BRM allows you to loose 15Buy-ins before moving down to somewhat overcome variance and give you chance to see if yuo can make it work at the new limit.

      If you do reach the limit set to move down it may just be a downswing and you got unlucky but most likely your skill level is not quite up to the new limit yet and you have some work to do on your game. This is all part of your progression as a player and yes your bankroll may have taken a knock but you will have gained invaluable experience.

      If you moved up a limit how you are suggesting you would go NOWHERE with poker! Moving up with 6-buy-ins at the next level would mean you could move up by hitting a very small upswings and approach a new level upprepared and without the required skill level or experience of palying at the previous level. You could move up 2 or even 3 limits in the space of a few days, from say NL10 to NL50, you are then going to be way out of your depth and get out played left right and centre consequently loosing all you money that you have earned and back to square one at NL10.



      Idk about cash games, but in my career as a MTT, SnG player, I have qualified to some 100 - 200 $ BI MTT's and I saw a lot of fishes and donks and the stile of play isn't changed. I could tell you from my experience that you will always have fishes and also some very good players sitting at your table.

      I mean look at WSOP and you will see what I'm talking about. Anyway in a high rollers cash games you probably won't see any SSS players :P
    • caltabiano
      caltabiano
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      I think BRM is overrated.

      Do not get me wrong, managing your BR is of extreme importance. But you don't need to follow specific rules or anything, UNLESS you're some sort of game addict or have some psychological issues with money. Other than that, you can just do whatever suits you best.

      My goal is to reach 100BI for example. And I'm a SH player. Dragar is hapy with 20BI and thats fine. He's just gonna have to move up and down limits a lot more than I do. I DON'T WANT to be moving up and down all the time. I've seen people losing 30+ stacks. I lost 40 myself. Variance can be sick and BAD PLAY can be even more sick.

      If you feel confortable sitting with 1/3 of your bankroll at a table and you feel you can beat the limit, then go ahead and do it, BUT be aware of the consquences. And be willing to take the consequences. If your AA get cracked, you're losing 1/3 of your bankroll and you can't simply click the rebuy button and wait for the next AA.

      It's all about what you want to achieve, what you are willing to take, how much money you can put in the table without playing scared money and all that.

      The most important thing is to feel confortable seeing 10 stacks going away in a session. And this "feeling confortable" is person dependant. Some people, after losing 10 stacks will think "Oh well... that's half my BR, now I'll have to move down limits" and they will feel confortable with this thought. Other people will think: "What do I care, I still have 90 stacks for this limit"

      It all comes down to confort IMO =D
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Thanks caltabiano (and nice blog). Personally i feel pretty confortable with the recommended 30BI rule. But my main problem is that the recommended way of switching limits is acording to my mathematics flawed. If you move up a limit and win then lose the same number of BI you'll get breakeven, if you first lose then win the same number of BI you'll lose and you'll lose big time. And this is obviously a bad idea since you should get breakeven also (you actually cannot do this, but you can make the difference smaller).
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by caltabiano


      My goal is to reach 100BI for example. And I'm a SH player. Dragar is hapy with 20BI and thats fine. He's just gonna have to move up and down limits a lot more than I do. I DON'T WANT to be moving up and down all the time. I've seen people losing 30+ stacks. I lost 40 myself. Variance can be sick and BAD PLAY can be even more sick.

      Ah... ok I use agressive BRM to move up limits till I find a limit I like. Then I will of course build my BR much bigger w/o moving up so I can do regular cash outs, even when I might have had a bad month.

      I am already not happy with 20 anymore though... use 22-25 now for NL50 and above.

      Its just the micros... I think people want to leave them as fast as possible as aggressive and BRM can make that happen.

      Most I ever lost were like 11-12 stacks.
    • 1
    • 2