[NL2-NL10] NL100 VS limp-raise

    • gao20005
      gao20005
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2008 Posts: 3,134
      villain: vpip/pfr/af/hands 63/4/1.2/51 3bet:0%
      I think villain is loose-passive
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      show play

      $0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      UTG1:
      $97.70
      UTG2:
      $223.55
      MP1:
      $20.00
      MP2:
      $178.60
      MP3:
      $105.90
      CO(Hero):
      $20.00
      BU:
      $120.05
      SB:
      $210.75
      BB:
      $27.85


      Preflop: Hero is CO with J, A.
      4 folds, MP3 calls $1.00, Hero raises to $4.50, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $7.00, Hero folds, MP3 gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $7.
  • 15 replies
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      I think I would call his raise for just 3$, you'd still have position, revaluate flop and than make a note if I came to showdown.

      He could be doing that with anything.
    • gao20005
      gao20005
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2008 Posts: 3,134
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      I think I would call his raise for just 3$, you'd still have position, revaluate flop and than make a note if I came to showdown.

      He could be doing that with anything.
      As a sss player,I never call preflop,never
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      i guess you already know waht I would do ;)
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      Originally posted by gao20005
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      I think I would call his raise for just 3$, you'd still have position, revaluate flop and than make a note if I came to showdown.

      He could be doing that with anything.
      As a sss player,I never call preflop,never
      There are spots when you can call, I'm not saying that is the right spot for it, but this is what I'd do in the situation. In poker you need to always reevaluate the situation as no case is completely equal to another. I believe the more experience you have the more moves you can make if you think they are apropriate.

      And if it was a bad move, I'd like to know why as I think is better to understand why I'm doing something than blindly follow rules.

      P.S. Before someone asks my VIP% and PFR% are almost equal, so it's not like I call everytime I'm insecure about the right play.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      min3bet = nuts. (you don't even know if I'm joking or not!) This guy may have 60 vpip but he has 4 pfr so I just let him take it down for now.

      The calling idea is a tad of a silly one imo as you'll just be committed to any flop. This is a push or Fold decision preflop for sure.

      Edit; Ooops, I didn't see he limp/3bet us. I'm retarded lol. I guess I will stick to my original analysis but I'm more likely to shove now as I don't have that much respect for 60+ vpip players Limp/3betting ranges.
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      It wuld be a 15$ pot, against 13$ remaining stack. I don't think we are comitted.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      It wuld be a 15$ pot, against 13$ remaining stack. I don't think we are comitted.
      You would only need 32% equity (correct me if I'm wrong) to call or get it in on the flop. Having called preflop you WILL be getting it on on the flop with those pot odds.

      Unless you're planning on folding if you don't hit flop in which case why call the 3bet? You hit 1/3rd of the time so that call = burning money imo.

      I stick to my guns that Push Or Fold preflop is the way forwards.


      If I've got you all wrong let me know though and I'll have another look at this spot.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      It wuld be a 15$ pot, against 13$ remaining stack. I don't think we are comitted.


      Agreed - we are not comitted and I think position justifies at least a call in this spot. That way we see a flop and force villain to make the first decision.

      I'm not passing up odds to call of 5:1+ against a 60 vpip villain with AJ. And I don't even mind just shoving here preflop as an alternative.
    • gao20005
      gao20005
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2008 Posts: 3,134
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      Originally posted by gao20005
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      I think I would call his raise for just 3$, you'd still have position, revaluate flop and than make a note if I came to showdown.

      He could be doing that with anything.
      As a sss player,I never call preflop,never
      There are spots when you can call, I'm not saying that is the right spot for it, but this is what I'd do in the situation. In poker you need to always reevaluate the situation as no case is completely equal to another. I believe the more experience you have the more moves you can make if you think they are apropriate.

      And if it was a bad move, I'd like to know why as I think is better to understand why I'm doing something than blindly follow rules.

      P.S. Before someone asks my VIP% and PFR% are almost equal, so it's not like I call everytime I'm insecure about the right play.
      We are commited if we call.I think we can either push or fold
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Ok, since there's some doubt on this, I'll show myself up here by admitting that I'm not 100% certain what we mean by pot comitted.

      Could someone confirm?

      I thought it was where the pot is more than or equal to our stack. If so, then yes we are pot committed here. However, we are are also comitted on any standard hand where we raise preflop, don't hit, make a c-bet and get called.

      e.g. we have 20bb stack. We raise 4bb. we get called. pot is 9.5bb. We cbet 6bb. Villain calls.

      On the turn the pot is 21.5bb and we have 10bb behind. So we are pot-comitted. But standard strategy tells us to play check fold if our hand doesn't improve. So being technically 'pot-comitted' doesn't oblige us to go broke in every case.

      I have a strong suspicion i'm spouting rubbish, so feel free to shoot me down :D
    • Gonzo394
      Gonzo394
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 2,181
      I dare to throw something in:

      Whether we are pot-comitted or not depends not only on the pot and our stack, but also on our hand and the range that our villain is putting us all-in with.

      So if we are in position and have potsize left and we know that villain bets if and only if he has a pair, then no, we are not comitted with overcards.

      If he however cbets every hand, then yes, we are comitted, since we should have more than 33% equity on almost any flop if his range also includes overcards.

      Also if he somehow checks every hand regardless if he hit something, then any decent-sized bet we place commits us to the pot.
      (Again: depending on villains range: if he would be so stupid to fold every pair to our bet and only push against our positional bet with sets, we would not be commited.)
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      What I wanted to say is that if the opponent was a passive player we might even get to showdown with 3 checks in a row after the flop. With a player like that I see 0.0% fold equity preflop, so an instant push wouldn't give us much advantage. If he's passive enough we could just fold to his flop bet.
    • goldflair03
      goldflair03
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.08.2008 Posts: 1,957
      Originally posted by gao20005
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      I think I would call his raise for just 3$, you'd still have position, revaluate flop and than make a note if I came to showdown.

      He could be doing that with anything.
      As a sss player,I never call preflop,never
      thats senseless bullshit
      u can coldcall a lot of hands in special spots, where coldcalling is more profitabel then pushing or folding.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by RahXephon1
      What I wanted to say is that if the opponent was a passive player we might even get to showdown with 3 checks in a row after the flop. With a player like that I see 0.0% fold equity preflop, so an instant push wouldn't give us much advantage. If he's passive enough we could just fold to his flop bet.
      I understand what you mean now.
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hey gao20005,

      you need 39.3% BEQ which is quite a lot to achieve with AJ when such a passive player decides to min3-bet. I would fold preflop.

      Calling can sometimes be indeed profitable, but against a player we don't know much about, specially when he starts to act differently as usually(he 3-bet despite his passive stats), I prefer to either push or fold. But if we had more stats on him we could make a call here and exploit him postflop IP.

      Regards,
      burek2000