fighting back the blind stealers

    • TheBelgarion
      TheBelgarion
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2006 Posts: 14
      MP3:
      $3,510
      Hero:
      $4,038

      50/100 NL Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 8:diamond: , 5:club:
      3 folds, MP3 raises 300, 3 folds, Hero raises 400, MP3 calls 200.

      Flop: (Pot: 1050) 3:heart: , K:heart: , 6:spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets 300, MP3 folds.

      Final Pot: 1350

      I saw MP3 doing this 2-3 times in the last few hands ... so I thought I might as well try to fight back - giving my above average Stack ...
      I wanted him out and was a bit worried he might have hit a real hand actually on this one, but than he might have only called because it was a bit to low and he wanted to protect his steal-try and not showing weakness.

      as I had to act first I thought I might try to show strength again as I re-raised him preflop so I bet 1/3 Pot - and finally got him out. ( and I already put 500 in the pot so I had to defend that too ) - checking here would have shown weakness and check-raise would not be very recommented here coz u might even loose more with that kinda hand

      I know this was a risky try and I would fold on any reraise or bet later but as I put him on bluffing/stealing it was still a good chance to continue to show strength (which I would have done with almost any flop) - and I know that will not work very often - so I would not recomment doing so if you are not certain about your opponent - I might even had a low pocket-pair here and didnt hit his trips so he did not wanna risk any more chips on this one.
  • 7 replies
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      By the way the hand is displayed very badly, ill discuss that with our coders. Or did you change anything???

      So lets do some mathematics:

      Your Play:

      You invest 400 chips raising up to 500.
      Your opponent raised 300 so he has only 200 to call in an 850 pot.
      And most of the time his steel raises wont be with random hands. He is holding Any A or K a lot of connectors or even gap connectors. Broadway cards and stuff like this or at least a small pocket pair.

      So i don't see ANY fold equity with your raise here.

      Your holding is crap. That means you will always see a flop here. You invest another 300 chips here on the flop as some sort of continuation bet.
      Which is in not enough. He will often call here with so many hands he tried to steal with. Of course you say you want to fold. But look you invested 700 chips here and either preflop and postflop you gave your opponents good odds to call.

      Your play should be:

      With a crap hand like yours and with the analysis that he is trying a steal here you should definetly try to win the pot preflop. Because the next thing that is an argument for a strong raise preflop is that you are out of position.

      The position in NL games is sooooo important. This would be a different situation when villain is raising out of the SB where you would be in position postflop.

      But you should just simply reraise him 3times his raise. So a raise up to 900 would be fine. You are investing 900 chips here but you will win the hand so often preflop. With your play you are investing 700 chips but you are not creating ANY fold equty neither preflop nor on the flop.

      And with a hand like 85 you want a fold!!! :D

      Best regards,
      Stefan
    • sismis
      sismis
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2006 Posts: 352
      On other hand by creating no fold equity he gives impression to have super strong hand ;)
    • Nogatsira
      Nogatsira
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 201
      IMO this was a horrible play.
      If you put him on a steal, then dont minraise him out of position.
      He might call with any 2 cards and you dont want to see a flop at all.

      You reraised him so little that you still have no clue if he was on a steal or not AND you are out of position. How are you willing to outplay him?
      You are lucky that he isnt playing really well either, cause you made a really small bet on the flop aswell. What would you do if he call this little bet?
      The little advantage that you might have is that he put you on a monster with this preflop and flop play.

      I think if you are trying to outplay this play that you thought was a steal that you have 2 options:

      1) Reraise him more then a minraise preflop, make it around 800-1200, somewhere in between. I also suggest you never minraise :p

      2) Flatcall his raise and donk it all-in on the flop. This might be risky but it has good fold equity :)

      They try to teach you to play tight agressive, but even if you play a loose move like this, still be agressive. Weakness will get punished by good agressive players, and you would have lost 1/4th of your stack.

      I hope this made sence and I also hope it was helpfull to you.
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      Originally posted by sismis
      On other hand by creating no fold equity he gives impression to have super strong hand ;)
      I don't expect this to be a $215 or $520 SNG so too much thinking for a low limit SNG.

      And anyway even if you would make him think that you would have super strong hand sooner or later you would have to make a super strong move, risking a lot of your chips. When he hits the flop he will soooo damn often call this too small bet on the flop.

      So really bad play here.
    • TheBelgarion
      TheBelgarion
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2006 Posts: 14
      you may think so but ...

      first its was low SnG .. and you know how some of em play ...

      and I dont think it might have been any difference raising more ...

      this was only SHOWING OFF ( showing that I have a strong hand .. doesnt really matter ) and he might have actually hit a good hand on this one so why risk more than needed !?

      and as i said a didnt want him to call with his crap ( if im righ) .. but the whole point was ...

      after he called my re-raise ... I had to make a good bet too ... ( anything else might have lost the pot completely)

      and as I stated it was more risky than stupid ... ( stupid would be raising with such a hand without knowing the risk)
    • Nogatsira
      Nogatsira
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 201
      Originally posted by TheBelgarion
      you may think so but ...

      first its was low SnG .. and you know how some of em play ...

      and I dont think it might have been any difference raising more ...

      this was only SHOWING OFF ( showing that I have a strong hand .. doesnt really matter ) and he might have actually hit a good hand on this one so why risk more than needed !?

      and as i said a didnt want him to call with his crap ( if im righ) .. but the whole point was ...

      after he called my re-raise ... I had to make a good bet too ... ( anything else might have lost the pot completely)

      and as I stated it was more risky than stupid ... ( stupid would be raising with such a hand without knowing the risk)
      "after he called my re-raise ... I had to make a good bet too ..."
      It was merely a reraise, let alone a good bet. I dont want to sound offensive here, just trying to help you with explaining why it was so bad.

      With such a low bet you are not showing off that you have a strong hand. You are asking to get reraised and lose whatever you put in.
      And you are right: he might have hit a good hand .. cause you let him! Thats why you should reraise more preflop.
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      Point1
      With his stack size he will not steal with any2 here. Actually if he is playing perfect he is holding a pair or a strong Ace.

      Point2
      With only 200 to call in an 850 pot plus very good implied odds. he will call here 90% of the time.

      Point3
      you are just holding 85o you have a 40bbstack, so absolutly no need here to make such a move.