To trap or not to trap???

    • txfoyochipz
      txfoyochipz
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2009 Posts: 32
      Hi fellow pokerplayers

      I bet u guys all know what its like to play a sng and to have no playable hands in the early stages. Then you finally pick up a good hand like AKs, QQ or KK with approximately 10-14 BB.

      Now comes the dilemma... Ofcourse you want to get value from your strong hand, but you are also vulnerable, because most of the other players have you covered.
      In situations like this I often choose to play my hand a little tricky to get max value from the hand. However, this tricky play is often punished and I get sucked out on (usually by a weak player).

      My question is: Should I abandon this tricky play, because my stack is so low and simply push all-in or just look at it as any other bad beat and stick with playing for max value.

      I will give a couple of examples of situations where my trap goes wrong or I lure my opponent into committing himself with a weaker hand, only to end up losing. These are all from 10$ speed sng's with a starting stack of 1500 and all hands are before the bubble game.

      1) I have 1100 chips the blinds are 50/100.
      I wake up in the BB with KK. A weak player with 2000 chips min raises from the SB. Instead of pushing I reraise to 600 to lure him in. Villain calls and the flop comes AJ3. He checks and I push my last 500 chips. I get instacalled by A7off.
      I play it like this because I am pretty sure he is weak and alot of the times will fold to a push.

      2) I have 1100 chips and the blinds are 50/100.
      I get AKs in the SB. I have a read on the BB that he is a weak player who raises way too many marginal hands and will try to steal or bluff whenever given the opportunity. I feel quite confident he will raise a very wide range if I complete. So I complete the SB and villain (2500 chips) raises to 400. I insta-reshove all-in and get called by K9diamonds. The board comes 3d 10d Js Qc 8d and my broadway gets rivered by a flush :( .

      3) I have 1400 chips and the blinds are 100/200.
      I am on CO with QQ. A very loose player with 4500 chips who had been limping every hand and stealing alot of pots on the flop, limps from UTG+1. Instead of pushing I raise to 800 chips (with a very tight image, as I had hardly played a hand) to induce a call by smaller PP or other weak holding. Ofcourse I get called and the flop comes KK4. Villain checks and I push my last 600 chips, only to get called by K8s.

      I tend to make these kind of moves when I have a read on a player, usually against overly aggressive or very loose weak players. The reason behind it, maximum value obviously. However, I am starting to wonder if this is a mistake because of my stack size.
      I would love to hear what you guys think of this. Should I have pushed these hands with a good chance of the villain folding or should I just suck up the bad beats against these donkeys and tell myself I will win the hand next time.

      Thanx for the feedback
  • 13 replies
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Hi,

      Well I think example 1 you have to just shove over, I would never get tricky here as like in the example the A on the flop either kills your action or you lose your stack.

      Example 2
      Im a bit undecided on I dont like completing here as you will never know where you stand and if he hits the flop in anyway being a bad player he will stack off with it and you are only holding Ahigh
      I think a raise shove to any non scary board is ok but i prob just shove against bad players as they always look at it as a steal and will stack off with K4 and the like.

      Example 3
      I think you just have to shove here with only 7 big blinds left
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      unless your oponnets are retarded raising half of your stack with <10bb looks stronger than pushing.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      It does but you are looking to get called with your premium hands not pick up the blinds
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      unless your oponnets are retarded raising half of your stack with <10bb looks stronger than pushing.
      +1 ^^

      i never trap when short, they will call u anyway if they have a half decent hand pre flop and you will only get yourself into tricky situations post flop.
    • Raisolution
      Raisolution
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.05.2009 Posts: 996
      Originally posted by lennonac
      It does but you are looking to get called with your premium hands not pick up the blinds
      But @alejandrosh meant, that is more likely to pick up the blinds when you raise and get called when you push, if the opponents understand some of the basic principles. :P
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by Raisolution
      Originally posted by lennonac
      It does but you are looking to get called with your premium hands not pick up the blinds
      But @alejandrosh meant, that is more likely to pick up the blinds when you raise and get called when you push, if the opponents understand some of the basic principles. :P
      Exactly....dont you want to get called??

      In each example you have premium hands, dont you want to try and double up through them?
    • txfoyochipz
      txfoyochipz
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2009 Posts: 32
      Thanx guys, I am starting to think I should have pushed all three of the hands.
      However I aggree that raising half my stack looks stronger to a good player. If I am facing a regular or even an unknown I would definetely push all 3 of the hands. The thing is.... in the examples above (which all happened during 1 session btw) I have a read on my opponent.

      In 1, I think there is a big chance he will fold 2 a push but will call my reraise, I am trying to commit him with his semi decent hand when he hits on the flop. I really only have to dodge the ace.

      In 2, I feel very confident he will raise any ace, any king and alot of other marginal hands because he thinks I am weak. Also (because of my tight image) I believe he will fold alot of those hands to a push.

      In 3, I realize that my bet looks stronger than a push, however I think I make it alot easier for him to fold when I push. When I raise he feels inclined to call and try and suckout (as bad players usually do) and I dont have to mention how large my edge is against his range in this situation.

      Basically I am trying 2 commit my opponents to double me up or suckout. However maybe it is better to push because my stack is so low. I am aware that bad players call all-ins with trash, but the chances of them folding is quite large and then I miss out on a ton of value.
      Remember that I would push these hands 90% of the time against a good player, but I want to punish the donks for their bad play and extract max value from it.
    • txfoyochipz
      txfoyochipz
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2009 Posts: 32
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      unless your oponnets are retarded raising half of your stack with <10bb looks stronger than pushing.
      Thats the thing though, they are retarded, and thats why I do it.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      I think that the high blinds takes care of the value, which is why icm works and is unexploitable
    • txfoyochipz
      txfoyochipz
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2009 Posts: 32
      Originally posted by lennonac
      I think that the high blinds takes care of the value, which is why icm works and is unexploitable
      Theres still a big difference between adding 150-300 to ur stack and doubling up.
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by lennonac
      I think that the high blinds takes care of the value, which is why icm works and is unexploitable
      ICM is just a function, it can't "work" or "be (un)exploitable".
      You probably confused it with Nash ranges.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Yes you are correct I meant nash
    • txfoyochipz
      txfoyochipz
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2009 Posts: 32
      I am not familiar with nash.

      The dilemma I am facing though, is not a mathematical problem. Im sure mathematically it is better to push. However, having a read on a player can change this.

      Heres is an example: Lets say you complete the small blind 4 times in a sng and the BB raises 4 out of 4.
      You have 1100 chips left in the SB and the BB has 2800. The blinds are 75/150. You are dealt KK. Do you complete or push.

      Mathematically it would be a push, but I think I will still complete in this situation to have a higher chance, imo to double up and a small chance of getting sucked out.