[NL2-NL10] Nl10 Qq

    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Hey all,
      I started NL10 some days ago, as sng sucked for me. In the beginning NL10 was making me go down about 4 buyins, then started to climb back where I started from. from 46 to 54 I did in about 1-2hour, and just when I wanted to finnish my session, these cards came...and I wonder how should I play them.. just a note, QQ is a hand which 85-90% of the time makes me lose (with preflop allin- lifetime% not only fulltillt)

      1. QQ vs 1player

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      UTG1:
      $3.64
      UTG2:
      $6.83
      MP1(Hero):
      $2.48
      MP2:
      $1.85
      MP3:
      $10.57
      CO:
      $3.11
      BU:
      $11.43
      SB:
      $4.33
      BB:
      $9.70


      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q.
      CO posts deadblind, UTG1 calls $0.10, UTG2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, 2 folds, CO raises to $3.01(All-In), 4 folds, Hero calls $1.88(All-In).

      Flop: ($5.84) T, J, 8 (2 players)


      Turn: ($5.84) 5 (2 players)


      River: ($5.84) K (2 players)


      Final Pot: $5.84.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of queens(Qs Qd).
      CO shows two pairs, kings and tens(Ts Kc).

      CO wins with two pairs, kings and tens(Ts Kc).

      As SSS says, against 1 raiser, you go all in with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AK. So I guess this is what I should do normally. Or if there's any chart with "how to play vs reraisers" would be handful.


      2. Next hand 5 minutes later. Here I went all in vs 2 guys, should I only call this with AA, KK, AK?

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $3.39
      CO:
      $7.75
      BU(Hero):
      $2.00
      SB:
      $10.47
      BB:
      $2.20
      UTG2:
      $9.93
      MP1:
      $4.56
      MP2:
      $10.20


      Preflop: Hero is BU with Q, Q.
      UTG2 raises to $0.30, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.90, SB folds, BB raises to $2.10(All-In), UTG2 calls $1.90, Hero calls $1.10(All-In).

      Flop: ($6.45) T, 5, A (3 players)


      Turn: ($6.45) T (3 players)


      River: ($6.45) 9 (3 players)


      Final Pot: $6.45.

      Results follow:

      UTG2 shows two pairs, aces and tens(Ah Ks).
      Hero shows two pairs, queens and tens(Qs Qc).
      BB shows two pairs, tens and nines(9d Jd).

      UTG2 wins with two pairs, aces and tens(Ah Ks).


      Normally I'm getting very angry if I lose hands like these, but now I was just disappointed, not really angry. Losing with QQ is too usual for me to make me angry...sad but its true. Need help, if this was played OK or bad. Btw, didnt really have any reads on them, except that I knew they play alot of cards, they arent tight like me.

      Thanks for reading.
  • 14 replies
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      In my opinion you played both hands perfectly - well done!

      -Tim
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      I think the starting chart says that if you are reraised you call the reraise with ak/jj+.

      If you run the equilator and compare the strenght of the hands on the time of the Allin you will see that you are a big favorite against the first opponent, so that play will make you money in the long run.

      Against your second opponent you are slighlty ahead with QQ and if you add the money you already invested you are profitable again.

      If you use stats there is a great video from coach Xarry2 about preflop equity. If you understand the principles in this video you will see why you move was profitable.

      Just don't despair because of short run results. SSS is very swingy and you will get a feeling for your real winrate only after 50k+ hands.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Sad, I thought the answer gonna be this. somehow still, Im worried about QQ, even if the math says its good. Can you tell me where can I find this video about Xarry2? I know what hands to play, what I need to learn is the fast odds calculation, how much is the hand worth, hand strenght vs pot vs raise size and another thing, this elephant is not working, always says that it will show data as soon as it gathers enough information. how many hands it needs? more then 50? Beside these 2 losts with QQ the session was very good, I won about 5-10-15 BB at each table, I quited and searched for another table..what is a bit sad, that you cant join back the table with less chips then you left with at least for half hour (fulltillt).
      Thanks for replying guys.
    • RahXephon1
      RahXephon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 972
      The short explanation is you need to call 1,88$ to win a pot of 3,23$. Because of that you need to win just 37% of time to be breakeven.

      If you put QQ in the equilator you will se that against a normal reraise range of AK/JJ+ your queens have 47% to win the pot so even if you loose more than win you still get profits in the long run.

      But since your opponents can be even looser you can win even more money. In the first hand if you assume your opponent would reraise you with hands like KJ or better, your queens will win around 70% of the time so the move becomes very profitable. Just remember that you must not judge your results in the short run. A move is right or wrong regardless of the final outcome.

      Just remember if you could go all-in a thousand times with QQ against KJ for 5$ you would earn more than 1.000$

      P.S. the video is in the silver section, so you will probably have to wait a little to see it, but I recomend that you watch it as soon as possible.
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      As SSS says, against 1 raiser, you go all in with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AK. So I guess this is what I should do normally. Or if there's any chart with "how to play vs reraisers" would be handful.
      Hi, you played the first hand very well. And yes, there is a chart that says how to play vs. reraises. It says to go all-in with TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA and AK. (This is even more than what you reraise and that's because you already invested some money and have therefore better odds.)
      You can find the "chart" here in the basic SSS.

      Acording to more advanced chart you should look at your remaining stack and your original raise and decide acording to it. (The smaller your stack compared to the money you already invested, the more hands you can go all-in with.)
      If your remaining stack is at least 4x bigger than your original raise, you only continue with JJ, QQ, KK, AA and AK.
      If your stack is between 2.5x and 4x your raise, you go all-in also with AQ, TT and 99.
      If your remaining stack is even smaller than 2.5x you raise, you go all-in with all hands you raised with (AJ, KQ, 88 and 77).


      Originally posted by Lizocain
      2. Next hand 5 minutes later. Here I went all in vs 2 guys, should I only call this with AA, KK, AK?
      In this hand, you should reraise all-in immediately after the raise as the strategy tells you. It is possible to raise only to 3 times the previous raiser but I only advise you to do it if the 3x reraise is less than 40 % of your stack (if you either have bigger stack or you opponent only minraises).
      As played you have to call the all-in after a reraise (there are 2 all-ins but it doesn't really change your decision because you have lower chance to win but the pot you win gets bigger, so it kinda even itself out).
      You only fold JJ, QQ and AK if there are 2 raises before you and this is not the case. There was only 1 raise before you, the other raises are after you.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Thanks guys again.

      The short explanation is you need to call 1,88$ to win a pot of 3,23$. Because of that you need to win just 37% of time to be breakeven.


      How exactly you got that 37% chance?

      In this hand, you should reraise all-in immediately after the raise as the strategy tells you.


      Doesnt the strategy says that you go all in after a reraise only if the raise would be bigger then half of your chips stack? or you go all in after one raise no matter what?

      How do you guys calculate "in head" the odds, or you use some program that does it real-time while playing?
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      The short explanation is you need to call 1,88$ to win a pot of 3,23$. Because of that you need to win just 37% of time to be breakeven.


      How exactly you got that 37% chance?
      1.88/(1.88+3.23) = 0.37
      You pay 1.88 and the pot is 3.23 now, so it will be 1.88 + 3.22 after you call.


      Originally posted by Lizocain
      In this hand, you should reraise all-in immediately after the raise as the strategy tells you.


      Doesnt the strategy says that you go all in after a reraise only if the raise would be bigger then half of your chips stack? or you go all in after one raise no matter what?
      In the past the strategy was to raise to 3x and go all-in if it is more than 50 % of your stack.
      Now the basic strategy is changed to go all-in after a raiser no matter what.
      I believe that something in between is the best solution. ;-)
      3x raise is good, but if you raise for example 45 % of your stack, you are never folding the flop.
      Say for example that your opponent raises to 3 bb, you reraise to 9 and he calls. Now the pot is 9 + 9 + 1.5 (blinds) = ~20 bb and you only have about ~10 bb left in your stack. That just doesn't leave you any room to play, you bet all-in no matter what the flop is. Even if your opponent bets into you and you have AK and didn't hit, well, you are still getting such good odds that you have to call.
      Therefore there is not much sense in reraising to 9bb, it's better to just push your 20 bb and put the maximum pressure on your opponent.

      There are situations where this might not be true.
      For example you already won some pots and you have 25 bb. Or you maybe just even doubled up and now you are waiting for the blind to get to you and you are just playing the last hands before leaving the table.
      Now if your opponent raises to 3 bb and you have AA, you might not want to push say 35 bb right into his face. That's just too massive overbet and he will likely fold hands he might otherwise pay you off with. In this case you can raise to 3x his raise making it 9 bb and on the flop the pot will be 20 bb and you have about 25 bb behind, so you can still make some decisions.
      Another example is when your opponent only minraises. Then you can raise to 6 bb (3x his raise or just count his minraise as 2 limpers and raise 4 + 2 bb, which is the same result).

      But as a general rule: If your opponent raises at least 3 bb and you have standard stack (less than 25 bb), just push all-in, it's the easiest and often the best play.
      If you are out of possition (most often this happens because you are in the blinds), I also recommend you to push directly even against a minraise, because if you reraise only to 3x, he calls and you miss, you have difficult situation on the flop.

      Originally posted by Lizocain
      How do you guys calculate "in head" the odds, or you use some program that does it real-time while playing?
      Well, we don't calculate them exactly, just estimate them. This comes with experience. You see the pot and the bet of your opponent, say the pot is 10 bb and he bets 5 bb, you need to call 5 to win the 15 in there, therefore you need 5/(15 + 5) = 5/20 = 1/4 = 25 % equity.
      If he puts you all-in for your remaining 15 bb, you need to pay 15 to win those 25, hence you need 15/(15 + 25) = 15/40 = ~37 equity.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Not reading the other replies. (sorry guys, I'm tired) but here is my two cents;

      hand 1) Nicely played.

      hand 2) Alright, but since you are pot committed to any flop (you have so much money invested compared to potsize when flop comes) you can shove preflop instead.

      Not all SS players will take my line in Hand 2 though.

      Hope it helps in some way.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Thanks for replies again. Sadly I lost today again with AA, AK, 88 preflop (vs 1 player). Basically you all say to go all in with QQ before the flop, because its more profitable ?
      Guys I need help with a hand. I know I played it bad, but its huge unluck that I had..just wanted to make more money out of the hand, at flop raise he would fold as standard. just a note at how lucky this guy is. After this hand I had AK, all folded except him, preflop he reraised me, so it was all in, he had J9 and he made straight on flop... then he went all in with K5 vs my 88. he won again.. ok but here's the AA hand, so the strategy says to raise 2/3 of the pot or allin at the flop..

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $19.52
      BU:
      $7.38
      SB:
      $5.10
      BB(Hero):
      $2.00
      UTG2:
      $27.09
      MP1:
      $1.55
      MP2:
      $5.35
      MP3:
      $9.97


      Preflop: Hero is BB with A, T.
      UTG2 calls $0.10, 6 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, UTG2 calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($0.85) 8, A, A (3 players)
      Hero checks, UTG2 checks.

      Turn: ($0.85) 6 (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.20, UTG2 calls $0.20.

      River: ($1.25) 4 (3 players)
      Hero bets $1.40(All-In), UTG2 calls $1.40.

      Final Pot: $4.05.

      Results follow:

      UTG2 shows a flush, ace high(Jc 9c).
      Hero shows three of a kind, aces(As Td).

      UTG2 wins with a flush, ace high(Jc 9c).
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hi, please post new hands in a separate thread, as it makes it easier to review.

      In the AT hand you posted, your preflop raise needs to be bigger if you are going to play this hand at all. You need to raise 4bb + 1bb for every limper - so you should raise to $.50 However, at NL10 I would recommend you only play hands from the SHC and as AT is not included, you would do better to fold preflop.

      Because your preflop raise isn't big enough you give ok odds to opponent to call with his marginal hand.

      On the flop you chose to check. At NL10, it's better to value bet - around $.45 should be fine.
      On the turn you finally bet - but now villain has a flush draw and again you give him really good odds to call. You need to bet much more now that a draw is possible - $0.6, I would say. On the river it is 'too late' to get your money into the pot with your overbet - now you give really bad odds to call so the only hands that will call are those that are already beating you. So you can see that by trying to make more money you end up loosing more. Villain played stupidly by limping and calling such a bad hand preflop but you made it too cheap for him to get lucky.

      Good luck - just keep it simple and play according to the articles ;)
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Everything is ok, except why should I fold AT when all folded and only 1called? I know the raise sucked, all my other raises are 4BB+1/caller. AT is not a good enough hand to steal blind? I have this ICM Trainer, in there, if I'm SB and everyone folded, even hands like 22+,Ax,Kx,Q3o and almost every hand should raise to blind steal. Is that trainer using some different strategy? Because I am blind stealing with A5s/A8o+ always. Sorry the next posts i will make in different thread.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hi Lizocain!

      I only assess your original post so hand 1 is well played, mostly you go all-in with the best hand and if you keep doing that, you will earn money!

      I do not really like the $0.9 reraise from you since you have $1.1 left meaning you will be pot committed on the Flop.

      So I will shove there preflop as a reraise instead of making it $0.9

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by LizocainIs that trainer using some different strategy? Because I am blind stealing with A5s/A8o+ always.
      Yes, the ICM trainer is for a different type of poker - namely Sit and Go tournaments.
      Blind stealing might be a good thing but you need to know how often is your opponent going to fold/call/resteal.
      If your opponent is loose, you don't really want to be stealing with hands like A5 too much, they are hard to play post flop.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      I got it, though I still steal blinds with good hands, like A8o+, K9o+. at least I see that 90% of the time the steal is succesful, is it luck or the blind stealing from CO/BU that I do is good?
      At the start I went down to 42$, now made it up to 59 and I just got 5$ bonus now.Everything is going fine, just dont know how to handle this half hour waiting time, to get back to a table with minimum chipstack, where I previously won and left with higher chip stack..and as I see at FTP its kinda lot SSS players.
      Will need to learn sng and mtt in future.
      Thanks for replies mates!