Running bad vs. playing bad

    • feedfest
      feedfest
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.06.2009 Posts: 119
      Looking for some comments to help ease my mind.
      I think I play a fairly solid TAG style. I profit - a little.
      My stats are in the 14VPIP 9PFR range with an aggression factor of 2.66

      Lately I am being reraised on nearly all preflop raises.
      I am not hitting any flops.
      I am being reraised on all Cbets and when I pop them, they have AA to KK or whatever.
      Being 4 bet when defending the blinds and again, not hitting flops.
      On showdowns, I am consistently being beaten by hands that should not (in theory) have thought about calling a PFR raise to go heads up with me.

      My question: Is this potentially just variance kicking? How do we differentiate between running bad (which I kind of feel like I am) and playing bad (which tends to happen when you don't get cards ya?)

      Thanks for your thoughts
  • 10 replies
    • roswellx
      roswellx
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.12.2008 Posts: 599
      14VPIP and 9PFR shows that you only play PPs and strong broadways. So what do you think with what hands they will crush you when they know that you only play the strong hands. They either hit sets, or have AA KK or 2 pairs. So Try to widen your range. Stats don't show that you're good TAG.
    • feedfest
      feedfest
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.06.2009 Posts: 119
      Originally posted by roswellx
      14VPIP and 9PFR shows that you only play PPs and strong broadways. So what do you think with what hands they will crush you when they know that you only play the strong hands. They either hit sets, or have AA KK or 2 pairs. So Try to widen your range. Stats don't show that you're good TAG.
      ok good. thanks for the feedback. it is FR not SH if that makes a difference. I have found varying opinions on what the ideal range is for TAG play. I play close to the BSS starting hand chart but a little bit looser, especially from late position.

      What would you suggest a more ideal set of stats are?
      My stats were taken over about 40K hands.
    • huluvu21
      huluvu21
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2009 Posts: 27
      i think u should play more hands out of your range. if u play just "by the book" (PP, face cards, suited connectors etc.), your oponents (the smart ones) will read u very easily. just try to mix up your game a little. try to think about your image at the table and try to use it wisely in your favor. it works for me anyway...

      poker is not just about the cards being dealt to you...
    • radyan111
      radyan111
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 1,151
      For me the gap between PFR and VPIP is too big, especially for fullring. Raise more hands and isolate limpers in position and fold more out of position.

      The best way is to use the hand evaluation forums though - paste the hands you're not sure about and even if you are you can still post them, maybe you're missing something you're not aware of and other people can help you to find the leaks.

      Even if you're just reading other people threads it's of some benefit to you - just try to think what would you do in their position and then look what the judge had to say about it.
    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      Table selection is key if you're gonna play Tagg. I for one love playing taggs, they raise a lot, hoping to get a loose call when they hold the goods. The only way to play a tagg is to slow play them and let them bet into you. I rarely flat call a taggs raise pre-flop, fold or raise. Seeing that you raise with 77+,A7s+ probably hands like KTs+, QTs, I'm gonna re-raise you with hands like 88+ and AK, hoping you fold. 80% of the time you will.
      How do you play post-flop, are you able to fold AA or KK??? If not, I'm gonna widen my range against you and hope to hit strong and get paid off by your aggression. Do you C-bet too much? or, against a calling station, or a another tagg who knows you cbet. A lot of variables.
      Know your opponents, know them well before you apply advanced poker plays against them. Keep it simple when you are playing in-experienced players.

      I see Taggs trying to bully or outplay beginners everyday, mistake.
      Select tables with PF% 20-30%, bigger the pot the better, you want 2-3 laggs and the rest taggs for a well balanced table for you're style. IMO
      I constantly watch the lobby for loose tables, not too loose, when the table tightens up to PFR18% or less, I move to another table.

      P.S. Don't know what limit you are playing, but in low limits, a raise generally means strong hand, be prepared to fold, A LOT!!!! Hands like top pair or overpair aren't hands you should put all of your stack in with, unless you have a good read on your opponent.

      Don't forget to put those laggs on your buddy list and follow them around.

      Also, SSS, not such a good idea, if you have the proper BR, play BSS. Gambling to SSS when I'm having a good day is fun and profitable. Playing SSS loosely gives the bad Taggs a mis-guided idea about my play and often get called down by JJ, QQ when I hold the goods.
    • JuiceQuadre
      JuiceQuadre
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 2,688
      What limit do you play?

      I think 14/9 are solid stats for lower limits FR imho.

      Im myself now playing 13/9 and im doing fine.

      That the opponents will read me easily? Doubt that on NL25 where i play... The "smart opponents" that would read me easily are readable as well for me playing their ABC tag style.

      Its nonsense to think too much about deception (of course its important, but its not what ur whole profit is about) and about loosening up at low limits.
      Just my opinion.
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      Originally posted by racenutalways
      Table selection is key if you're gonna play Tagg. I for one love playing taggs, they raise a lot, hoping to get a loose call when they hold the goods. The only way to play a tagg is to slow play them and let them bet into you. I rarely flat call a taggs raise pre-flop, fold or raise. Seeing that you raise with 77+,A7s+ probably hands like KTs+, QTs, I'm gonna re-raise you with hands like 88+ and AK, hoping you fold. 80% of the time you will.
      How do you play post-flop, are you able to fold AA or KK??? If not, I'm gonna widen my range against you and hope to hit strong and get paid off by your aggression. Do you C-bet too much? or, against a calling station, or a another tagg who knows you cbet. A lot of variables.
      Know your opponents, know them well before you apply advanced poker plays against them. Keep it simple when you are playing in-experienced players.

      I see Taggs trying to bully or outplay beginners everyday, mistake.
      Select tables with PF% 20-30%, bigger the pot the better, you want 2-3 laggs and the rest taggs for a well balanced table for you're style. IMO
      I constantly watch the lobby for loose tables, not too loose, when the table tightens up to PFR18% or less, I move to another table.

      P.S. Don't know what limit you are playing, but in low limits, a raise generally means strong hand, be prepared to fold, A LOT!!!! Hands like top pair or overpair aren't hands you should put all of your stack in with, unless you have a good read on your opponent.

      Don't forget to put those laggs on your buddy list and follow them around.

      Also, SSS, not such a good idea, if you have the proper BR, play BSS. Gambling to SSS when I'm having a good day is fun and profitable. Playing SSS loosely gives the bad Taggs a mis-guided idea about my play and often get called down by JJ, QQ when I hold the goods.
      very very interesting, i play tight sss and have been getting crushed recently by regulars
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      Originally posted by JuiceQuadre
      Im myself now playing 13/9 and im doing fine.
      I'm NL fish but at NL25 FR I have stats 17/14 lol. I guess I'm too loose :D
    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      Here's an example of trying to outplay beginners. I usually play tight, but I mix it up a lot, the flavor of the day today is maniac. Watch this hand:

      for some reason the hand converter was giving wrong outcome of the hand

      GAME #1823929096: Texas Hold'em NL $0.10/$0.20 2009-09-05 15:48:37
      Table Beryllium
      Seat 1: hero($28.54 in chips)
      Seat 3: JayDee66 ($10.94 in chips)
      Seat 5: nokiamobile2 ($4.00 in chips)
      Seat 6: csill ($22.84 in chips)
      Seat 7: hoepo00 ($19.93 in chips)
      Seat 8: Ricardo1893 ($21.39 in chips) DEALER
      Seat 9: Chomik777 ($3.80 in chips)
      Seat 10: thegreatshadow ($28.76 in chips)
      Chomik777: Post SB $0.10
      thegreatshadow: Post BB $0.20
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to hero [C4 C7]
      hero: Raise (NF) $0.70
      JayDee66: Call $0.70
      nokiamobile2: Fold
      csill: Call $0.70
      hoepo00: Fold
      Ricardo1893: Fold
      Chomik777: Fold
      thegreatshadow: Call $0.50
      *** FLOP *** [C8 C6 CJ]

      Now I flopped scary here, two calling stations in the hand, both loose as hell, this could be trouble:

      thegreatshadow: Bet $2.90
      This I expected, I re-raise, trying to protect my hand from a draw, if I'm beat, I'm beat;
      Hero: Raise (NF) $5.80
      JayDee66: Raise (NF) $10.24
      the overtired rookie decides to push his stack, oh boy, now I stepped into it
      csill: Fold
      thegreatshadow: Call $7.34 <-- this was no shocker, he hates to fold
      Hero: Raise (NF) $27.84
      thegreatshadow: Call $17.60<--- like I said, no fold
      *** TURN *** [S8]
      *** RIVER *** [H8]
      You gotta see what they called their stacks off with


      *** SUMMARY ***
      Total pot $65.82 Rake $3.00
      JayDee66: Shows [H3 HJ]<---- top pair 3 kick, yup on a 3 to a flush flop
      thegreatshadow: Shows [C9 S10]<---- gutshot with 9 hi flush draw
      Hero: wins $33.88
      JayDee66: wins $31.94

      Jaydee had 3.01% of winning this hand, heck no problem for those loose gamblers LOL

      You see, trying to outplay, outwit beginners is an expensive error!!!If you have too may gamblers at one table, they are bound to get lucky, there are more of them then there is of you..

      Here the taggs are drooling at my play. But rarely do they call to my re-raise unless they are trying to trap, which some don't do at all, they re-raise and I easily fold, a smooth call is what I am looking for, hoping for that tagg with AA trapping my butt. The smart ones rarely donk bet, going for the check raise, giving me a free card, the turn is where I make my decision on how I'm gonna proceed, (P.S. never out of position).

      Juice, you're somewhat correct about deception at lower levels. Titan has many good players, even at NL10$, those you need to mix up you're game a little. I played tight, which was a mistake, never got called with my made hands and lost big pots to strong draws. I had to adapt and quickly, my style is tight super aggressive, I don't what them to know that, so playing loose against the short stacks, bluffing the taggs as often as I can, raising my junk, limping my big pairs, defending my blinds, you name it. Usually confuses the weak, the good ones are on to you, but that's ok, they are not my target. The laggs will play loose against you, the taggs tighter, perfect world.
    • JuiceQuadre
      JuiceQuadre
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 2,688
      Originally posted by CoreySteel
      Originally posted by JuiceQuadre
      Im myself now playing 13/9 and im doing fine.
      I'm NL fish but at NL25 FR I have stats 17/14 lol. I guess I'm too loose :D
      Well im tight nitty, thats not a secret :D But its working so far on low limits



      @ racenutalways: Whatever works for you mate ;) Its true we all need to find what suits us the best ;)