I need advice - Major Leak

    • Strodyn
      Strodyn
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.12.2008 Posts: 14
      Hey folks,

      I have a hugh problem that is costing me money and am just wondering if anyone else has had this issue, and if so what they did to try to rectify it.

      I am convinced so often that if someone 3 bets me, or goes all in quite often, that they are bluffing. Normally I have the 2nd best hand at the time, and end up losing my stack.

      It has cost me most of my smallish bankroll, however I think it has been worth it just to identify this problem. I am sure that if I can address it then I can start to play profitable poker.

      I am aware this is my major leak, however I keep making the same mistakes.

      Perhaps just writing it down in here will help, perhaps someone can advise of similar problems they have had and ways to help address it.

      I take a 3bet/allin to me personally, as though someone is accusing me of bluffing, and it is just crazy tbh, because then I feel totally obliged to call. This normally although not exclusively happens when I do have a strong hand, like TPTK. However normally when I call the bet, or go allin as is usually the case, I find I am facing a set or an over pair.

      I play NL10 atm, and 180 SnGs, however it is not really a problem in the SnG's as I dont view the chips the same way I view my stack in a ring game. Perhaps this is the problem. Its just weird.

      I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

      Hope you can advise something for me :)
  • 23 replies
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Use stats and watch his 3bet%, call/shove vs loose players and fold vs nits
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Post hands in the hand evaluation forum, this way the judges will help you identify in which situations the opponents could be bluffing and in which ones they definately won't be.

      I don't think the "call against loose fold against tight" rule is very good, first because it's based on stats which a lot of the time you won't have accurate ones, and secondly because just because someone is loose doesn't mean they'll shove over your c/r on a K72 rainbow board with air.
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by Strodyn
      I am convinced so often that if someone 3 bets me, or goes all in quite often, that they are bluffing. Normally I have the 2nd best hand at the time, and end up losing my stack.
      I thought he meant pf =P my bad.
    • Strodyn
      Strodyn
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.12.2008 Posts: 14
      Nope pf I am happy with my allins, dont feel I make too many mistakes there.

      I just dont seem to respect my opponents post flop reraises, even if I can see from their stats that they have a low 3bet %.

      Quite often it is because it makes no sense for them to go all in at that point, like hitting nut set on a dry board, unless they meet a donkey like me to call them of course....... other times it is because I feel overly defensive about my raise, and I feel they are just trying to bluff me out of the pot.

      Of course there are times where I know I am right to go allin, and if I do and lose then hand it does not really bother me, as I know I made the right play.
      Too many times I know I make the wrong play, and that is the problem.....I know I do it, yet I keep doing it.

      I have today decided to drop down to NL2 where i think I am likely to get more situations like this to 'test' myself. Hopefully I can start to fold situations where I am not likely miles ahead, and at least I will slow my bankroll shrinkage.

      To me this game is as much a battle with ones own feelings as with other players.

      I will dig some hands out to post for review :)

      Cheers
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      I dont remember ppl bluffing that much on NL10
    • Strodyn
      Strodyn
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.12.2008 Posts: 14
      I dont think they do often either, hence my problem....for a few seconds in certain conditions I just lose it and think that they are....costing me lots.

      Really it is totally something I need to address, I am aware of it, I just wondered if anyone else had had similar problems perhaps. :)

      I have focused very hard today on not doing this, and so far so good.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      It comes with experience - try following the game in hands where you are not involved. Watch opponents and see if they raised with air or some strong hand. Usually it will be the 2nd case, but sometimes it will be bluff. Make notes, watch board texture and try to remember some previous history in bluff cases. With time you should get the feel for it.

      Review hands where you did call the raise that you thought was one of your described spots. Think about what hands would you raise if you were in opponents place.
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by Strodyn
      I dont think they do often either, hence my problem....for a few seconds in certain conditions I just lose it and think that they are....costing me lots.

      Really it is totally something I need to address, I am aware of it, I just wondered if anyone else had had similar problems perhaps. :)

      I have focused very hard today on not doing this, and so far so good.
      I think its ok to lose stacks like that, because we are still learning and its a part of the process. Later on you will recognize their patterns and know when you should probably fold.
    • michaelqian
      michaelqian
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 512
      After about 30,000 hands on NL2, I have learned that people really don't bluff a lot on low limits.

      In fact I have rarely seen bluffs.

      So when they bet, you raise, and they go all in, they are not bluffing most of the time.

      It's obviously a good thing that you recognize your leak though.
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      SB:
      $143.50
      BB:
      $13.00
      UTG1:
      $52.65
      UTG2:
      $15.50
      MP1:
      $100.00
      MP2(Hero):
      $131.00
      MP3:
      $100.00
      CO:
      $20.70
      BU:
      $94.45


      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7, 7.
      2 folds, MP1 raises to $3.50, Hero calls $3.50, 2 folds, BU calls $3.50, SB calls $3.00, BB folds.

      Flop: ($15) K, 7, 8 (4 players)
      SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $9.00, BU calls $9.00, SB folds, MP1 folds.

      Turn: ($33) 6 (2 players)
      Hero bets $20.00, BU calls $20.00.

      River: ($73) 9 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BU bets $61.95(All-In), Hero folds, BU gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $73.


      this was one of the hardest laydowns of the day
    • Wizard101
      Wizard101
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 34
      Tough laydown. Without stats i don't know, but i don't think i could have folded there, just to many hands ur beating, he may have had 9,10/6,5 and lucked the straight on the river, but it looks more like he's got aces. If he had kk/88/99 id have just had to pay him off.....prob talking bs, but i imho I can't fold trips unless im 95% sure im beat.
    • jonnyjm
      jonnyjm
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 447
      I dont think you can lay this hand down....

      I dont really think the runner runner straight should be scaring you. Id be inclined to think he has QQ+. If he has KK well...thats just poker, IMO your well ahead of his range here.
    • michaelqian
      michaelqian
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 512
      hmmm... tough fold indeed.

      I think you showed some weakness by checking to him on the river, which obviously shows him you are scared of a straight.

      I can't put him on QQ, because otherwise he probably would have bet the flop.

      KK is more likely, he may be slow playing, but a good player would probably have raised you on the turn to protect against a straight draw.

      So my guess it TT, I think TT would make sense for him to limp the flop and turn, finally shove the river.
    • MikeB570
      MikeB570
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.05.2009 Posts: 72
      Maybe a weird suggestion but maybe try playing more tables. I was a slight loser at NL10 playing 1-4 tables but I've been winning very nicely the past week playing 8 tables. I had the same problem as you and I think playing more tables makes it a lot easier to just fold and get to the next hand.

      One thing though, I've tightened up a hell of a lot which may or may not be a good thing (running about 12/7) using stats and trying to pick up on who the fish are to profit more.

      And as someone said above I really don't think people do bluff that much. From my experience a random usually isn't 3 betting AJ or 88 (unless maybe to a steal). Identify the people that are 3 betting light but otherwise, I proceed with extreme caution to 3 bets.

      As for postflop keep this in mind. "Small pots are for small hands, big pots are for big hands". Don't run up big pots with bluffs. Also use position to your advantage, if you have position raising a cbet with TPTK is folding A LOT of hands you beat and you're only getting called/3 bet with hands that have you beat (or maybe draws that know they have implied odds against you since it looks like you're going broke with TPTK)
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      Originally posted by jonnyjm
      I dont think you can lay this hand down....

      I dont really think the runner runner straight should be scaring you. Id be inclined to think he has QQ+. If he has KK well...thats just poker, IMO your well ahead of his range here.
      this was my thinking:

      KQ or AK reraises on the turn with that drawy board.
      KK is a slowplay but who is stupid enough to play KK slow from bu vs 2 more players?

      I actually put him on 99 or TT or K9. one of them three.

      99 is a good call on the flop, he turns a straight draw and he makes a set on the river, only a blocking bet could have done the trick but why spend more money when I am losing?
      TT is a very very adventurous straight but still...
      K9 is a weak King that wanted a showdown, makes two pair and goes for it.


      In my opinion yes it could have been a bluff but this was the point of my post, that sometimes you should be prepared to be bluffed, you cant call every time.
      :s_cry:

      Hope it helps with your leak.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      You're missing two of the most obvious hands he has here on the flop... T9 and 65. Both of these are standard calls (suited mostly) from BU vs 2 players. Obviously all draws got there by the river so easy c/f for me.

      Also, KQ would never ever raise the turn there unless it wants to severely valuetown itself :tongue:
    • Strodyn
      Strodyn
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.12.2008 Posts: 14
      Thanks for all the advice folks, I have worked very hard on this and think I have overcome it by starting to look at my ring games chips differently, as though they are just a tool to use in the game, rather than actual money.

      For some reason this means that I am more protective of them from a strategic point of view, rather than being personally insulted should anyone try to take 'my money'.

      MikeB570 I did try playing more tables and it definitely helped there initally, as I did not have the time to 'over think' the hand. I however was making too many mistakes so have dropped back to 4 tables.

      I have also changed from FR to SH following a coaching session this week, and think I am doing pretty well there. It is very different and much more about playing the player rather than the cards, which tbh I am quite enjoying.

      Hopefully this leak has been plugged, and I can start to identify a few others.

      Cheers :)
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by excelgeo
      I actually put him on 99 or TT or K9. one of them three.
      If that was the case, I don't understand the fold at all.

      (I don't say that the fold is wrong, but if you put him on this range, you have to call, because you beat 50 % of it.)
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,024
      joking? insta easy c/f
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