PartyPoints False Claims

    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      Good evening everyone.

      I have been playing at PartyPoker for some time now and I've been saving up my PartyPoints in order to cash in on their promised 30 % rakeback bonus : 3000 $ for 20000 PartyPoints.
      Unfortenately, a quick study showed nothing could be farther from the truth for NL100 players like me.

      Yesterday, I put in a 12 hour grinding session of 4 tabling, totalling 5100 hands played and all that hard labor earned me 550 PartyPoints.
      A quick glance at my PokerTracker 3 Database for yesterday's play shows me that in those 5200 hands, I paid no less than 540 $ in rake (5.2 PTBB/100) and the table average was 496 $ of rake (4.77 PTBB/100) in rake.

      This also means that on average, for 550 PartyPoints, the average hum-dum joe had to pay 496 $. If he were to grind it up to 20000 PartyPoints, he would have accumulated no less than 18036 $ in rake. I myself will have accumulated 19636 $ in rake.

      Exchanging those 20000 PartyPoints to a promised 30% RB bonus of 3000 $ end up being a Rakeback equivalent of 16.6 % for your average Joe and 15.3 % for myself.

      I can accept a smallish discrepancy between promised and actual rakeback rates because there isn't a one-on-one actual rake vs actual PP system to avoid it, but promising almost double of what you actually get is false and unacceptable advertising !

      I sent them an email with my finding, I hope other players who play there will also look at how many PartyPoints a day of grinding has earned them and how much rake was paid for it (individually or table average) and make their own calculations. I also hope PokerStrategy will take notice and put pressure on the site to do something about this as they have already succumbed to PokerStrategy pressure on the Points System in the past.
      Either the Points per Raked Hands must be reviewed for some limit, because for NL100SH, where rake is a mind boggling 4.5 to 5 PTBB/100 these days with the aggression at the tables, the point reward is ludacrously low.

      If nothing is done soon, I'm leaving as soon as I get my bonus and never coming back again and will try to keep other away as well.
      A genuinely disgusted customer.
  • 21 replies
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      Ok, I'm not dropping this matter now...

      I mailed PartyPoker to complain about the misleading advertizing :


      Good evening,

      [...]

      Secondly, in the PartyPoints Store, you advertise that the 3000 $ for 20000 PP bonus is a 30 % Rakeback deal.
      Running my PokerTracker database thought me that yesterday, I earned 550 PP and I paid 540 $ in rake.
      A quick calculation shows me that your 3000$ for 20kPP is completely falsely advertized as 30 % rakeback as it's closer to 15-16 %.
      I'm really, really, really dissatisfied with such false claims and hope those claims will be corrected somehow.
      Promising double of what you are actually offering is scrupulous.

      A disgruntled customer.
      SonicXT


      Their response :

      [COLOR=darkred][FONT=courier new]Dear ***,

      Thank you for contacting us.

      [...]

      In regard to your second question, please note that we give bonuses worth the equivalent of up to 40% rake-back for the 'Palladium Lounge Elite players'. That is, these players can buy bonuses in our points store which give you up to $20 back for every 100 points, equating to 40% rake-back. Our records indicate that you are now in the Gold category and to join the Palladium Elite level players need to accumulate 50,000.00 PartyPoints in a Quarter. I request you to please click on the links given below in regard to this: https://secure.partyaccount.com/pc/tiers.do?productID=poker&brandID=PART Y&LANG_ID=en http://www.palladiumlounge.com/ Please contact us incase you have any more issues in regard to this query and we will assist you further.
      I thank you in advance for your patience and cooperation.

      Regards,

      ***
      Customer Service
      Have Fun and Gamble Responsibly [/font][/COLOR]

      Ok, that was totally besides the point : let's try again !

      In response to the PartyPoints system. I'm afraid you missed the point I was making.
      I'm fully aware that I need to upgrade to Palladium status in order to cash in on the 3000 $ bonus later on. That was not my problem.
      My issue was that you advertise that bonus as if it is an equivalent of 30 % rakeback, while it's not even close.

      Calculating the amount of hands I play, the amount of rake I pay for playing those hands and the amount of PartyPoints I have received for playing these hands, I come to this conclusion of yesterday's session

      Hands played (me) : 5199
      Rake paid : 540.79 $ (table average 496.17 $) according to PokerTracker 3
      Points received : 550 PP

      At this pace, in order to get to 20000 PP, I will have paid no less than 19636 $ in rake !!
      Giving 3000 $ back is an equivalent of 15.2 % rakeback instead of the promised 30 %.
      This gap is HUGE and points to false advertising in my opinion.
      In order to get 30 % rakeback at least 5000 $ or maybe even more should be rewarded, so please do not tell me those bonusses equate to 30 %. NL100 SH is wààày undervalued in terms of PartyPoints per raked hand played if you ask, given that average rake is no less than 4.5PTBB/100 or 9$/100 hands and for some players even more !


      This is false advertising... even if I move up to Palladium.


      And again, their response, this time a bit more to the point, but still way off :

      Dear Wim,


      Thank you for contacting Customer Service.

      [...]

      Regarding your second query first I would like to say that I regret to hear that you feel this way about our site. I can see that your calculations are correct however I would like to note that in those 30% rake back we also include all the other benefits that we offer such as:


      1. bonuses that are automatically given by our system
      2. special promotions
      3. Also have in mind that this bonus is for our palladium players which receive special bonus offers


      This makes the whole loyalty program very flexible. I hope that this
      explanation gives clarification of the matter.


      If you have further questions or queries, please do not hesitate to
      contact us.


      We are here 24/7 to assist you


      Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site.


      Best regards,


      *** (new guy),
      Customer Service.

      Have Fun and Gamble Responsibly


      This reply, albeit more concise and at least proof he actually read my complain, still is as incorrect as can be. My latest mail to them in reply to their response clarifying the subtle abomination to the truth.

      Dear ***,


      Regarding the rakeback controversy, I'm still not convinced. PartyPoker makes it look like the value of that bonus deal alone is worth 30 % in rakeback. I have further evidence contradicting your earlier statements btw.

      First off, here's a snippet from a mail I received from an another customer service agent at PartyPoker :

      "In regard to your second question, please note that we give bonuses worth the equivalent of up to 40% rake-back for the 'Palladium Lounge Elite players'. That is, these players can buy bonuses in our points store which give you up to $20 back for every 100 points, equating to 40% rake-back."

      This message was in response to the initial complaint I sent and was sent by Anupama. It clearly states that $20 for 100 PP equates to 40% rakeback. From that I can deduct that PartyPoker presumes 50$ of rake to equate to 100PP, while for me, it equates to 51PP and for the average of my tables at NL100SH it equates to 55PP (being a bit higher because they play a bit tighter). That's error number 1.

      Secondly, you state that this rakeback should be looked at as the maximum rakeback you can achieve if you use all promotions more than optimally, which needless to say is almost impossible as I'd need to clear the whole 20000 PP in 10 days during the Cash Machine promo to enjoy a real 25 % rakeback (the Cash Machine promo equaling to 10 % RB maximum if I play the exact amount of hands for 10 days straight and don't play on any other days) ... still below 30 % sir.

      Thirdly, even if it were possible to achieve 30 % in total, this is NOT what PartyPoker advertizes ! How do I know ?
      If I take a look at the bonuses offered to Palladium players, I see the 3000$ bonus for 20k PP being advertized as 30 % and the 1200$ bonus for 10k PP being advertized as 24 %. The difference in money for both promotions if 20000 PP were earned according to the site equals to 600 $ and to 6 % in RB. They both have exact the same money/PP to rakeback percentage ration and therefore one can conclude that this advertized rakeback percentage only applies to the cash bonus purchase with PartyPoints, as other additional promotions offer no discrimination in terms of money received per paid $ of rake. So where does the difference in advertized rakeback come from ? Only from the Bonus purchase itself and nothing more.

      Need more ?
      I'm absolutely sure that if you carefully read and examine this, you agree with me.
      But I'm assuming you can't say this "on the record", but "off the record" I'm right.
      If no satisfying answer is given, I will spread this message and won't drop it this easily.
      This is a case of horrendous misleading advertizing and is outlawed by EU law, of which Gibraltar is a member.

      I'm sorry, but I'm truly appalled, maybe even more so by continuous denial on your side of this offense.


      ---

      Maybe I'm taking this thing a bit too far, but I feel it's my ethical and moral duty to report this violation of consumer trust to someone.
      This is a continuous denial of misleading information, even when I clearly point out it is incorrect. Maybe for some limits, those numbers are more correct, but NLSH players are having their ball broken, scorched and eaten while the majority is oblivious to this.

      Am I right this is a violation of EU law ? I had a course in European politics and juridicial systems at university and from what I can recall, what they are doing is unlawful...
    • Xpload1989
      Xpload1989
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2009 Posts: 8,720
      Welcome to the way customer support of pokerclients tend to react. They ALWAYS try to take a different route, they hardly ever answer your questions straight on. I had the same with my issues back at the time when I was trying to get a PokerStars account. You always need several mails about the same subject, because they seem to miss the point all the time. ?(
    • Ejeckt
      Ejeckt
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2008 Posts: 517
      Interesting post. Keep going at it! I hope you manage to start a wave of change at PP, cause false advertising really is a bloody unethical to attract clients.
    • Knien12
      Knien12
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2008 Posts: 2,435
      hee Don Quichot,

      Pak your bags and go to a different room.

      Steek je energie beter in iets dat wel nut heeft.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Wow FL customers get shafted!
      I have been playing sng's on party and you get 2 party points per $1 in rake.

      So to get the $3,000 cash bonus you need to pay $10,000 in rake and 30% of $10,000 is $3000.

      It seems that sng players get better treatment
    • Ejeckt
      Ejeckt
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2008 Posts: 517
      Originally posted by lennonac
      Wow FL customers get shafted!
      I have been playing sng's on party and you get 2 party points per $1 in rake.

      So to get the $3,000 cash bonus you need to pay $10,000 in rake and 30% of $10,000 is $3000.

      It seems that sng players get better treatment
      Seems so. I'd really prefer if party points were allocated to players based on rake collected... and not really on raked hands. Too many variables in ring game rake calculations.
    • tuomasta
      tuomasta
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 234
      Looks like that.....but

      my calculations
      I play NL25

      Right now i clear my first deposit bonus
      PT3 shows that i have paid rake 1012$... now i have earned my bonus 250$
      So that RB is about 25%... Thats fine.

      if i buy bonuses, (gold level 350$ bonus=4000PP and 1000PP to clear that)
      First time i buy and clear it i get RB 14.7%, but second time i get 18.4%(because i get 1000PP from clearing first bonus)

      Everything seems to be fine in my level.

      If you play lots of smaller pots you get more rakeback than player who palys fewer big pots..Because PP calculated by raked hands.... Is that right?... So play LAG not TAG

      I play something like TAG&LAG and every second hand is raked(i think that include blinds... my vpip isn't 50)


      PS. English isn't my native lang so allow errors
    • Heffron89
      Heffron89
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2009 Posts: 813
      Isnt it that Pokertracker can be a bit innaccuarate?
    • kAAhlo
      kAAhlo
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.02.2008 Posts: 41
      the 30% claim is just accurate for sng and Mtt play.

      The cash games differ wildly, also the more loose you play the more rake you pay but it has no effect on your points. Fullring you get better rakeback than shorthanded. Party support won't admit this as they would admit that not all players are treated equally.
    • tuomasta
      tuomasta
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 234
      One of my friend play at Partypoker and he plays extremely loose and he get 1/3 more PPs than i get.

      He plays just same level and game modes that i play.
      i dont' know what else can effect this... somebody can explain wohle RB system.

      I don't play Jackpot... They get extra 50 cnt rake out of every pot and that doesn't collect PPs.
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      I don't play Jackpots either, so that inaccuracy doesn't exist here.
    • kAAhlo
      kAAhlo
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.02.2008 Posts: 41
      @tuomasta

      your friends style might loosen up the game flow at the table so that more hands see a flop which leads to more points at these particular tables. However, party points are in no connection with the actual rake you pay at the table you are playing.
    • funktor
      funktor
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      Interesting... for 20,000PP on FL $0.5/1SH I need

      163k hands ~ $4.6k of rake -> $3k bonus is

      65% rakeback...

      F.
    • natalijavilimonovic
      natalijavilimonovic
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 4
      i don't like this system at all.

      i just started on PP, i play ring game 0.05$/0.10$ (6 seated, loose) and so far i payed around 50$ in rake.
      for that 50$ i got only 34 party points.

      how did they come up with that number?
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      NL100 FR BSS I pay about 4.5 to 5 bb/100 in rake and get about 10 Partypoints per 100 hands.

      20,000 points = 200,000 NL100 FR hands.

      in 200k FR hands 4.5 x 2000 = $9000 rake

      Which looks about 33% rakeback not including 5k points to clear the bonus,

      to clear bonus;

      25k points = 250k NL100 FR hands = $11250 rake = 26.6% rakeback.

      So I agree that its not 30% rakeback even for FR. NL50 will be worse I pay abou double the rake there.

      Anyway;

      It Is true Palladium Lounge gives you bonuses, but not while you are clearing a 3k bonus for example. They used to give me regular bonuses until I started clearing the current one I am on.

      Amazingly, Looks like on SH you are raking twice what I am on FR!
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Amazingly, Looks like on SH you are raking twice what I am on FR!
      Yep, playing twice as many hands (and the general looseness creating more frequent large pots etc etc) will do that.
      That's why they cap rake HU at 50c or 1$ depending on sites (guess which ones... but that's another story ;) )
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      I just playing FL 2/4 there now, gives me 50 % RB, even SH.
      Lame, lame system.

      But ok, I'll have to divide my roll then, Party for FL, NL I'll find another site for.
    • iamblueandurmine
      iamblueandurmine
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2008 Posts: 130
      Sonic i am glad you have taken the time to do what i have should have done weeks ago. I play 100NL SH and FR on party for 2 years now and i am appalled at their latest loyalty system. Everytime you think they cant make it any worse than the last, they do. In recent months some of their promotions have been wildly off the mark and today i see they have brought back the million $ hand, but now restrict it to 10 cards (2 hands) a day?!?!?!? There have been a lack of continuous bonus and deposit offerings and after getting a blunt reply on this matter i have decided to take the easy way out, stop play their regularly and focus on stars and FT.

      Anyway good job with the e-mails Sonic i hope they pull the finger out sometime soon.
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      They won't ...
      As the system is completely flawed in terms of equal value per $ rake depending on what table size, limit and game format you play, some limits are overcompensated (most notably FL2/4) and some are undercompensated (most notably any NLSH game)

      The rakeback can vary from ~17% on NL100SH to ~48 % on FL2/4SH as to what they describe as being 30 % for the 20000 PP Palladium bonus.

      Basically, it just means : go play NL on another site, if you're an FL player, stick to party if you think it's soft enough compared to other sites as rakeback is perfect there.

      It's just a terrible shame for the Party employees that they admit to the bonus rakeback not being enough and then say "oh, but if you use all our promos optimally you'll get 30%", while it's clear that is not the intention of the system as other limits are compensated fairly (for SNG/MTTs, the 30 % is completely correct without extra boni).
      It is a shame that a company that we pay a lot of money to for their services blantantly lie directly and offer nothing of value to compensate for the heaps of money they silently take away from every hand we play. Maybe I'm just a bit naive or too much of principle man, but this lack of company ethics I find disturbing ...
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