[NL20-NL50] TT vs button threebet

    • GrantJennings
      GrantJennings
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 232
      Hello, I'd appreciate any guidance ya'll can offer.

      Pokerstars Fullring 10/25c NL Holdem table.
      In the previous few hands, I have been on a rush and run a few moves after showing down quad jacks. This was following a couple rounds of tight play. Maybe a perceptive player picked up on my change of gears?

      We are currently 6handed. All stacks are around 100 bb or more.

      Hero is UTG with 31.75
      Button has 25, and has played few hands, but aggressively (Classic Tag?)

      Hero Dealt 10 :heart: 10 :club:

      Hero Raises to $1
      2 folds
      Button reraises to $3
      Blinds fold, pot at $4.35
      Hero Calls(?)

      Pot: $6.35

      Flop:
      4 :diamond: 6 :spade: 7 :club:

      Hero bets $3
      Button reraises to $9
      Hero Folds.

      Hero feels like: :f_confused:
  • 7 replies
    • 4mosa
      4mosa
      Global
      Joined: 11.09.2009 Posts: 1
      Hey, yeah, what betting line should you take in this spot? How can we lose less money here and still be sure we aren't folding the best hand?
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      I fold preflop with no reads. You are not getting the right odds to setmine, and unless you have a read that he 3bets with less than AA-JJ, AK (which is the majority of players on nl25).

      The fact that you are OOP is bad too. If you had a read that he 3bets lighter than the above range, I wouldnt be afraid to shove because its tough to get any extra value postflop. You might be able to get JJ to fold too.
    • GrantJennings
      GrantJennings
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 232
      Word.

      Yes, I like the fold preflop better the more I think about it.

      I figured that I'm 4-1 underdog to the bigger pairs, a slight favourite to AK, and a favourite to a move. 24 ways to have that big pair, and 16 ways to have AK. Since the pot was laying me better than 2-1, I went ahead and called,

      But position really changes all of those pot odds, doesn't it. In order to make the AK fold, I have to donkbet the flop as a probe, so my poor position costs me an extra bet, effectively giving me worse pot odds. In order to win the 4.35 in the pot after button's reraise, I have to invest $5, not $2, with this line. Not good odds at all. Less than 1-1 actually. Gross.

      That's wacky.

      I guess that, after floping a good board for my Tens and still having to fold proves that the call preflop is incorrect.

      How about holding JJ preflop? How does that change our line?
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hey Grant,

      I will move this to the Hand Evaluation board so that a judge can look at it

      I'm sure you will get more responses there then in this feedback forum :)

      Regards
      SoyCD
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Hi,

      Edit: short response to your comments,

      About it:

      Originally posted by GrantJennings
      But position really changes all of those pot odds, doesn't it. In order to make the AK fold, I have to donkbet the flop as a probe, so my poor position costs me an extra bet, effectively giving me worse pot odds. In order to win the 4.35 in the pot after button's reraise, I have to invest $5, not $2, with this line. Not good odds at all. Less than 1-1 actually.


      You don't have to donk in order for him to fold AK. You have the best hand in that case. Your better options will be c/c and let him bluff again or c/r and taking his cbet and the pot right on the flop.


      How about holding JJ preflop? How does that change our line?
      Unless that guy is a total nit I won't fold JJ preflop ever. Even if he is a nit you can call for set value as nits tend to overplay their hands since they play so little.
      In the aggressive play today there is nothing wrong by 4betting TT-JJ pf and getting the money pf. It all depends on reads and stats.

      These are my short thoughts:

      Preflop:
      Hero can call for set-value but should consider the fact that he is OOP.
      Hero can also call with the thought that BU is 3betting with OC or as a bluff and try to win the pot OOP postflop (which sucks...)
      other then that Hero can 4bet pf and try to get the money pf but it depends on the BU's stats (3bet pf % would be helpful)
      And yea hero can fold (which is my less favorite line)

      As played preflop:

      I don't like bet/folding the flop with an OP since this play turns a legitimate hand with equity or the pot into a pure bluff. c/c or c/r seems better but then again it dpends on the TAG you are playing and on your reads about him.
      Personally if it's an unknown TAG I'd probably c/c the flop hoping to get to SD cheaply.
      I don't want to play for stacks since for all we know BU can have a bigger OP.

      Hope this helps a bit. :)
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      if player is aggressive then best is just 4-bet pf and get all-in
      if player is nit, then call pf is ok, you can c/c once on that board and then c/f turn
      if player is aggressive and you decide to call pf, then bet/shoving seems better option than b/f, since he would do that often with bluff or worse hands
    • GrantJennings
      GrantJennings
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 232
      I'm still in the stone age, playing without statistics...

      And a hand like this really shows how valuable they could be to me.

      Thanks to everyone for your comments. I feel like the nit now!

      I'm still stinging from a KK vs AA cold deck that I got served in a live game, and I have to stop playing scared.