article question

    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      We're on the button in a loose-passive full ring game holding 8 :spade: 9 :spade: . We just jumped in on the round before so we don't have any definite reads on the individual players.

      Preflop: Thanks to four limpers (UTG, MP1, MP2, CO) before us, we have great odds. We call too. SB finishes and BB checks.
      Flop: 6 :heart: 5 :heart: 7 :heart: .The flop is both curse and blessing. The blinds check, UTG checks, MP1 bets and MP2 calls. CO folds. We raise our straight. After the fold of the SB and the coldcall of the BB comes a fold from UTG, and a 3-bet from MP1. MP2 folds and we have to decide whether our hand is strong enough to fight with the four remaining players over a 7.5 BB pot.

      This is from the golden section,article ,,Calldown,, exemple 3.
      It suggests a fold here.But isnt this quite weak?!?
  • 7 replies
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      I would never fold this straight on the flop. MP1 can not only have A :heart: but also a set or 2 pair. If he is spewy maybe even less.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi Dawnfall26,

      it looks weak but I like the explanation for it so I think a fold it fine here.
      In real you will almost never get into such a spot where all opponents are rather passive. 6 postflop opponents are very rare and the chance to be against a made flush is very high too.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Even passive players know that if they have a set they can lose to a flush on the turn so they might start raising and reraising while they still have the best hand.

      The first limit book I read was Small Stakes Holdem, a book made exactly for these conditions. Full ring games with many players who are both loose and passive. A lot of limpers preflop and many large multi-way pots. But I didn't find an example where it says to fold the nut straight on a 3-flush flop or a similar fold. Moreover, on page 274, there is an example where it advocates a call with just an overpair on a 3-flush board:
      "3 players limp, I raise from CO w Q :spade: Q :club: Both blinds and 3 limpers call (12 SB). Flop is J :diamond: 6 :diamond: 4 :diamond: Your opponents check to you and you bet. The SB c-raises and 2 players cold-call(19 SB). What should you do?
      Call. Getting 19-1 the pot is far too big to fold. While it is possible that one of your opponents has a flush, you cannot be certain. Do not fold decent hands in big pots on mere suspicion of the worst. To fold, you must be quite certain with specific, compelling evidence that you are drawing dead. In this hand the SB could easiy have just top pair or the A :diamond: If the cold-callers are loose, they could have almost anything. You absolutely cannot fold."

      Imo the example from SSH is a close call but the example from Dawnfall26's post is a clear call.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      hmmm.... we will be paying around 2,5BB for the pot of around 13-15BB
      so approx 1:6. Also our oponents have at least 9 outs to beat us so we are going to win only 66% so we need to be ahead here around 1:4. Due to the fact we are against 6 people with very wide ranges and the flop action we are up against a made flush more than that.

      Im convinced,fold for me too:)
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by Dawnfall26
      hmmm.... we will be paying around 2,5BB for the pot of around 13-15BB
      so approx 1:6.
      I hope you do not plan to call if a :heart: comes on the turn.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      and if it shows on the river? pot will be too big to fold since we beat straights
      Also situation gets even worse if there is a reraise on the river on a good card. Will we fold to 1 BB in a mega pot.
      Also SB can cap flop behind which makes it even worse
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by Dawnfall26
      and if it shows on the river? pot will be too big to fold since we beat straights
      Also situation gets even worse if there is a reraise on the river on a good card. Will we fold to 1 BB in a mega pot.
      Also SB can cap flop behind which makes it even worse
      I fold even if it shows on the river. I can make big folds for 1BB in huge pots if I'm almost sure I'm beat.

      I also posted this hand on 2 other big forums to be sure the call is the right decision. From 10 posters only 2 would have folded the flop. From DC forum no one would fold the flop.

      Maybe it's something in the article I don't know (I don't have access to the article). In theory a fold would be the right decision if MP1 is a player who would never 3bet a smaller straight, a set, 2 pair, or a big flush draw and if we know that. Given the fact that "We just jumped in on the round before so we don't have any definite reads on the individual players" I don't know how we can know that. I don't think such a player exist.

      On 888 I played against a very passive woman who never bets with anything smaller than 2 pair. When she bets you can be sure she has a set, a straight or something like this. A couple a days ago I saw her 3betting on a turn with a straight possibilty. I was 99% sure she had the straight. Guess what? She didn't have the straight, she had just a set. I was surprised she 3betted the turn with just a set given the fact a straight was possible.