Limpers

    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      I would like to start a discussion on if limpers in sit n go's effect you roi in a negative way.

      The reason I sugest this is in push fold stage of a sit n go, if a "Donk" limps in it affects my pushing range as I am no longer first to open. I am forced to open tighter.

      Now on the other hand you can consider this "Limp" to be dead money and will in fact increase your roi, but does tightening your range effect your first places as you will often go into the bubble as a short to mid stack.

      Interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this subject.
  • 15 replies
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
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      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      I think limpers always increase my ROI at my current limits ($2-$6) for a few reasons at different blind levels:

      1. Limpers in early blind levels allow me to over-limp with all pocket pairs which i dont like open-limping myself. Limpers also allow me to complete my SB more often and when hitting big, this pay's off almost always! (it is a lot harder to get into pots when your table is aggressive)

      2. in late blind levels i find limps mostly are pure dead-money on my limit. very rarely are 'donks' limp calling with monsters and more often than not i can pick up a pot worth 20-25% of my stack by pushing over a limper. VERY +$EV!

      Note:

      I do agree that your push range tightens up after limpers, BUT when you do get limp-called more often than not I find myself in a dominating position.

      They get sick of you pushing over their limps and start calling. I just finished a session and got limp called by Q8s and JTo.

      I am sure in the higher buy-ins the possibility of a limp being a huge hand is greatly increased, but im not sure exactly how it would affect the stats.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by lessthanthreee
      I am sure in the higher buy-ins the possibility of a limp being a huge hand is greatly increased, but im not sure exactly how it would affect the stats.
      Thats an interesting point as the higher the limit the less "Donks" in general you will find. Unless I have notes I asume a limp is a weak hand. Or if it is a reg who doesnt normally limp I treat this with care.

      Yes I have been snap called with some weak holdings but I find you lose almost all of your fold Equity, most donks limp call a wide range making your fold Equity quite small meaning you need to win a showdown.

      I guess you just have to take notes and adjust accordingly.
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
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      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      Originally posted by lennonac
      Yes I have been snap called with some weak holdings but I find you lose almost all of your fold Equity, most donks limp call a wide range making your fold Equity quite small meaning you need to win a showdown..
      im not sure if i agree. Obviously it depends how deep they are and how deep you are pushing into them. but I wouldnt say most 'donk limpers' are limp-calling a large proportion of their limping range (say 75%+).

      my point is that their limp-call range is absolutely crushed by our push over limp range.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      So are you saying that 75% is not a large portion of their range?

      That is my orginal point we have to tighten our range when we get a limper and we lose most of our folding equity.
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
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      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      to clarify; i dont see limpers calling 75% of their limps. more like 20%
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
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      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Don't know about you but i have a "punishment" policy on limpers and min-raisers both in SnG's and cash games whenever my cards allow it and i feel they're not trapping with monsters.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Its good to see different peoples views on limpers and as always with poker the answer is it depends! :D

      If they are a regular limper I can asume with a high confidence that their limps include AA KK possibly QQ
      Limpers that have stats like VPIP32 PFR6 I often find that their raising range often does not include AA or KK, its a classic case of I have a big hand I want action.

      I too like to punish limpers but in sng's its a little more dangerous as limpers do not like to fold. They limp you raise 4x they call about 80% of the time.

      I think its an interesting subject with no easy answer
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
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      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      Originally posted by lennonac
      I too like to punish limpers but in sng's its a little more dangerous as limpers do not like to fold. They limp you raise 4x they call about 80% of the time.
      ^^^ !!!

      This is 100% correct. which is why i often check behind AJ/AQ/TT/JJ type hands and wouldnt think twice about stacking off hitting TPTK or with an overpair.


      the other school of thought is that if they are limp/calling such a wide range you can try isolate with a wide range and take it down with a conti-bet.
    • andyb43
      andyb43
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      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 903
      [quote][i]
      They get sick of you pushing over their limps and start calling. I just finished a session and got limp called by Q8s and JTo.

      [/quote]I find this happens a fair amount of the time............

      Any limpers out there with an opinion on this subject? LOL
    • deVall3y
      deVall3y
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      Joined: 06.01.2009 Posts: 554
      hard to tell whether it has positive or negative effect, because yeah sometimes I'll have to fold a hand I wouldve pushed otherwise but when Im dealt a stronger hand I can push it and gain the dead money, or, often get called by worse (fish love overplaying suited connectors rofl)
      just be careful on pushing marginal hands versus limpers that are likely to call you. for example if some average stack limps and then people limp after him, they are less likely to be trapping you and theres a lot of dead money inside but I still wouldnt push weak hands becasue when I do get dumb-called I still want to be ahead (it doesnt have to be a very strong hand either)
    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by deVall3y
      hard to tell whether it has positive or negative effect, because yeah sometimes I'll have to fold a hand I wouldve pushed otherwise but when Im dealt a stronger hand I can push it and gain the dead money, or, often get called by worse (fish love overplaying suited connectors rofl)
      just be careful on pushing marginal hands versus limpers that are likely to call you. for example if some average stack limps and then people limp after him, they are less likely to be trapping you and theres a lot of dead money inside but I still wouldnt push weak hands becasue when I do get dumb-called I still want to be ahead (it doesnt have to be a very strong hand either)
      Im not as worried about pushing into multi limpers as I do not need as much Equity with my hand.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by lessthanthreee
      Originally posted by lennonac
      I too like to punish limpers but in sng's its a little more dangerous as limpers do not like to fold. They limp you raise 4x they call about 80% of the time.
      ^^^ !!!

      This is 100% correct. which is why i often check behind AJ/AQ/TT/JJ type hands and wouldnt think twice about stacking off hitting TPTK or with an overpair.


      the other school of thought is that if they are limp/calling such a wide range you can try isolate with a wide range and take it down with a conti-bet.
      I was thinking more on late stage push/fold play.

      But yes I do do this. Although limping behind with TT/JJ and AQ is very weak AJ I dont have a problem with in the early blind levels
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
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      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      Originally posted by lennonac
      But yes I do do this. Although limping behind with TT/JJ and AQ is very weak AJ I dont have a problem with in the early blind levels
      yeah i play a much tighter game in early stages compared to most regs, i rather wait for clear spots to get my money in ahead rather than raising hands where 35% of the time an over card will flop and having really tough post flop decisions (especially when 12-14 tabling)
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
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      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      forgot something... trying to steal a tight player who is uncharacteristicallly limping in the middle/late stages is certainly a no-no since he's often holding AA. And there are some situations where blinds start to get high let's say 50-100 or 100-200 and you have an effective stack of ~20BB or later with 8-9BB where i think that the limp is much more powerfull even though is performed by an usual limper especially when done in the late position or SB. I think that because if they have 20BB they are playing something like: they limp, you raise, they call, on the flop they check you c-bet they call/shove, on the turn they chech-shove. If they have 8-9BB they are expecting of course to try to steal them by going all in.
    • fljama
      fljama
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      Joined: 20.09.2009 Posts: 31
      Ill say thet there are mass players who have cards like 89 siuted or K 10 siuted and they only limp in hope to see a cheap flop and if you raise they will most likely fold.

      But me for expamle if im not ready to defend my money i never limp in when blinds are high, so mostly i fold siuted conectors in these situations, if i limp i must have AQ or stronger perhaps TT and im ready to push all in back to you.


      so its a tricky situation.. you must observer people from early stage of game to have a vision of how might they react if you push them.


      hope it helps, gl pushing : ) :f_cool: