can you fold KK preflop?

    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      How many could fold KK pre-flop?? They say you should fold KK only if you know your opponent has AA, how do you know? With online poker growing and newcomers joining on a regular basis, it's almost impossible to know what he's holding. I've only folded KK a few times in the yrs I have been playing.
      I was involved in a hand full of beginners who fold at any size raise. I limp with aces, after 2 limpers, MP3 decides to raise 7xBB, all folded, as expected, I figured I'd play this loose and stupid, I re-raise all-in, he had 67.5BBs and called with just short pause with A6s.
      An hour later, I was dealt KK, with now mostly new players at the table, I open for 8XBB, all fold to an opponent who was present during my all in with aces and commented on how bad I played it. He shoved his 100+ stack, I immediately folded. He spent the next 20 minutes convincing me he had AK. Maybe so, but with only a couple hours playing with this guy, he slo played a boat and played 12% of his hands. Not knowing him was the major reason for my fold here. Do I believe he had AK, no, insta-fold.
  • 20 replies
    • Falco84
      Falco84
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 76
      I'd never fold them preflop. But that's me. :)

      Maybe in very rare instances where I'm very very deep stacked, and the agressors can stack me.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Why did you Open to 8x? the table was That fishy?
    • KidPokersKid
      KidPokersKid
      Global
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 653
      Originally posted by Falco84
      I'd never fold them preflop. But that's me. :)

      Maybe in very rare instances where I'm very very deep stacked, and the agressors can stack me.

      for 100BB I never fold for 200BBs i may lay down depending on the opponent and my table image.
    • Berzerger
      Berzerger
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 910
      The coaches will tell you not to fold KK for 100BB. However, I've had the following scenario numerous times: I hold KK and raise, someone 3bets, I 4bet and he shoves. This should be an easy call, but seriously, what hands do people 5bet with other than KK+? I've ran into aces too many times here to snap call every time for 60BB more...
    • maxdex
      maxdex
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.09.2009 Posts: 1
      you shouldnt fold KK pre flop, also dont put all your money pre flop on KK because an idiot with a marginale hand might call and crack your kings, and even pros sometime will call with a marginale hand just because you give them too good pot odds i would call almost any raise that will give me odds of 1-4.5-6 with ace rag suited because its the right call.
      be careful with KK and dont go all-in with it pre flop unless u have no choice( u should do it mainly if u are short stacked it a tournamet)
    • EthereaL
      EthereaL
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 838
      I don't think folding KK is a good play. The only exception may be in MTTs, when in certain situations, folding will have better equity than playing. If that isn't the case, there is absolutely no sense in folding KK preflop. There is only one single hand that you don't want to see and you have no way of knowing if you are up against it! I consider folding KK preflop a huge mistake :f_biggrin:
    • Dendra
      Dendra
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2009 Posts: 479
      just started playing nl bss and so far i went all-in pre-flop with KK 8x and every time ran into AA - against smaller stacks id never fold, but against other BSS who 3bet you and then shove their entire stacks, its just begging to be AA :D
    • KidPokersKid
      KidPokersKid
      Global
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 653
      Originally posted by Dendra
      just started playing nl bss and so far i went all-in pre-flop with KK 8x and every time ran into AA - against smaller stacks id never fold, but against other BSS who 3bet you and then shove their entire stacks, its just begging to be AA :D

      From the post above and a few others about cash games I think a lot are talking about FR tables... but in SH i dont think you can ever fold KK ranges are just too wide, some players are just too bad & some just love to gamble :f_biggrin:
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      Originally posted by Berzerger
      The coaches will tell you not to fold KK for 100BB. However, I've had the following scenario numerous times: I hold KK and raise, someone 3bets, I 4bet and he shoves. This should be an easy call, but seriously, what hands do people 5bet with other than KK+? I've ran into aces too many times here to snap call every time for 60BB more...
      yeah sure, but 4bet/folding KK is so :f_o: :f_o: :f_o: :f_o: I don't care if he always has aces but folding to the 5bet is a no no no no no
    • eszibit
      eszibit
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.12.2007 Posts: 1,964
      I had the same problem,every time i had KK i ran into Aces but this was only cuz i was multitabling and my 3beting range was very small so opponents ussualy fold or 4bet me with AA ..maybe AK once in a while.I started to really open my 3beting range and voila,i'm getting 4betted by a loooot more hands.Btw i play nl50 Sh
    • shortfuse
      shortfuse
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 450
      here lies the problem: textbook play suggests one should not fold KK. coaches tell you to shove with KK.

      Only you know whether you should or not. Sometimes you should trust reads and evidence with stats. Even if this means laying down KK. Prepare to be scrutinised though, there is no winning move lol.

      e.g
      tackling a particular NL25 reg
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      I could never fold it, Even against a very tight player. Because he could be trying to bluff you out of the hand, or have a strong hand like A-K suited or QQ. If you do run into aces then just pray you get a King.

      i've seen it so many times though.. people making a straight with the lower pair for example QJTA when they have a pair of kings.


      The only exeption maybe would be if i would have reached the final table of a very big tournament and one place difference was a huge amount of money. then maybe i could lay it down against a very tight player who wouldn't push unless he had AA pre-flop.


      But yeah, if something feels fishy. I usualy dont have a problem folding A-Q or even A-K. but KK, i would have to be completely convinced he had AA.
    • donroops
      donroops
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2009 Posts: 49
      DoN bubble play. Even fold aa.
    • babybooh
      babybooh
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2009 Posts: 39
      What's next? Folding aces coz you are sure villain will suck out on you?
    • GunFlavoured
      GunFlavoured
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 626
      Originally posted by maxdex
      you shouldnt fold KK pre flop, also dont put all your money pre flop on KK because an idiot with a marginale hand might call and crack your kings, and even pros sometime will call with a marginale hand just because you give them too good pot odds i would call almost any raise that will give me odds of 1-4.5-6 with ace rag suited because its the right call.
      be careful with KK and dont go all-in with it pre flop unless u have no choice( u should do it mainly if u are short stacked it a tournamet)
      Are you serious? Unless you are playing a DoN you should want to get your whole stack in preflop with KK. The only hand you are behind against is AA and you have everything else crushed. Doesn't matter if some donk calls with a marginal hand, you'll be way ahead with a great chance to double up.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      well KK owns in SH
      I just started playing NL100 FR at fulltilt recently, and about every 4 out of 5 of the preflop allins among two regulars are KK vs AA.
    • dustje
      dustje
      Gold
      Joined: 25.11.2007 Posts: 2,420
      wtf0ck

      online poker must still be profitable for years
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      OK, this is why you just don't fold them preflop... a hand from last night's session. Villain was a fish, but of the extremely loose passive type - over 150 hands he was playing 37/2/0.8, 3bet of 1.5...

      By his preflop action I was like 99.9% sure he had the bullets, but I did what I had to do:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.25/$0.5 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      MP2(Hero):
      $113.05
      MP3:
      $50.00
      CO:
      $50.00
      BU:
      $51.95
      SB:
      $47.40
      BB:
      $76.10


      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K.
      Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, SB raises to $3.00, BB folds, Hero raises to $9.00, SB raises to $15.25, Hero raises to $114.80, SB calls $32.40.

      Flop: ($160.95) K, 3, 6 (0 players)
      SB gets uncalled bet back.

      Turn: ($160.95) J (0 players)
      SB gets uncalled bet back.

      River: ($160.95) 8 (0 players)
      SB gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $128.55.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows three of a kind, kings(K K).
      SB shows a pair of queens(Q Q).

      Hero wins with three of a kind, kings(K K).

      Lessons learned:
      - They don't always HAVE to have Aces.
      - I would have sucked out on them anyway! :s_biggrin:
    • awishformore
      awishformore
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2007 Posts: 922
      So yeah, the folding KK preflop topic again.

      First of all, I have to admit, back when I started playing through PokerStrategy a few years ago, I was the one arguing that it was possible to fold KK preflop. And now, here I am, shaking my head at what I read. I recently started again with $50 myself, so I have a pretty clear picture of how the micro cash game limits play - I'm talking FR, not SH. Here is the thing:

      The "good" (actually they are bad, but more about that later) TAGs on the micros will mostly 3-bet QQ+ and AK - and they will fold anything but AA/KK to a preflop 4bet/shove. So does this mean you can fold kings, then? To put it simply: no. What then?

      The TAGs in question are usually very nitty and thus readable, and most of the times they will either go broke or fold to a 3bet - this means you isolate yourself against a really good range of QQ+, AK (ore even more tight) if you 3bet your good hands, putting you into a spot that hardly is profitable, even with KK it's close. Isn't there a better way to extract value?

      One approach is to just flat-call your monsters (QQ/KK, AK) and play them for value in position. Of course this leaves you vulnerable against sets, overpairs and much more, but it's usually more profitable than turning them into a bluff - which is what you're doing if you 3bet/fold QQ/AK, or even KK. On a nice flop with only low cards, you will often get it all-in against a worse overpair (QQ/JJ/TT), while they will often start slowing down if the board turns dangerous. It's usually not too hard to control the pot in position.

      Seeing how they fold so often to 3bets, you can really just start reraising a lot of other cards with good playibility - let's say small pairs, suited connectors, suited broadways. They will fold so often that the act of raising is already profitable in itself. If they call, they will probably be on something like AK/QQ and you can try to outplay them post-flop with good implied odds.

      The basic idea of this approach is to turn your weaker hands into bluffs by playing them aggressive and abusing the fact that they fold too much, while you try to extract value of your monsters by keeping the opponent in the hand with a weaker range. Please note that this is dangerous indeed, and you need the necessary post-flop skills to navigate ugly spots. I'm convinced it is the best approach against the typical TAG fish, though.

      So yeah, my 2 cents ;) .
    • 1
    • 2