second nut flush

    • Jeero
      Jeero
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2009 Posts: 114
      Today I was playing 0.01/0.02 FR and I folded the second nut flush to a pot sized bet. I couldn't find the log for that particular hand, but I need to know about these types of situations. I had QJs in my hand and there was a min-bet (or a small bet I forget exactly) on the flop, I call and another player calls. On the turn, the third flush card comes and UTG bets pot,... I fold and the other player snap calls. The board had a king so I had the second nuts. The end result was 7-high flush beating 6-high flush,....

      I was quite upset because I would have won that hand,... I really wish I could have found that hand so I could post it in the sample hands,... but to put it short, I did not have the nuts, and thus I folded. Perhaps I should have folded on the flop,... I dunno.

      I would think that I should expect this sort of thing often,... In the short amount of time I have been playing I have seen lots of weak flushes go to showdown. Still I only play for the nut flush?

      I find that I play a lot of hands and fold almost all of them,.... it gets frustrating because I feel that I am folding pretty strong hands,... just because they aren't the nuts.
  • 6 replies
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      Good fold if you don't have stats/reads on your opponents. If they tend to play loose/are stupid in FR, call them down. They will show you nut flush once in a while, but it will be profitable for you in the long run.

      If you don't like folding strong hands that are not nuts, move to SH, because in FR you can never be sure, while in SH second nuts IS the nuts usually.
    • Jeero
      Jeero
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2009 Posts: 114
      I will definately move to SH soon enough,... but I need to build fundamentals first, so that's why I'm playing FR until I get more comfortable with the game. It seems like it's tough to get good reads and stats on opponents at this level. The turnover is high and people's ranges seem like 100%,... I see total trash being played all the time. So, with that in mind, it's clear why only drawing to the nuts is the way to go,... but I fold soooo much on the flop. People play PLO like hold'em and make small contibets on the flop which make it enticing to call when you have something that can turn into a monster draw on the turn. But that's not good strategy right? even when it's just one min-bet,...

      Thanks for the advice Jackalof! I will definately move to SH though, in no small part because I will have to because I don't see many FR games outside the micro-limits. But in the meantime, do I just have to be patient? Will I eventually make the 10BB/100H if I play the solid strategy given in the articles at the micro-limits?

      One fun thing I noticed about playing these fish is that occasionally I am all-in in a completely dominating situation,... ie. I had top set with KKxx and I was all in with someone with top two pair with no other draws to go with it. I win 99% of the time because villain needs runner-runner for quads. I guess this is what we go for,... but they seem few and far between.
    • mchaggis
      mchaggis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.09.2006 Posts: 157
      You never fold the 2nd nuts at micros. (by never I mean almsot never)
    • Jeero
      Jeero
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2009 Posts: 114
      Originally posted by mchaggis
      You never fold the 2nd nuts at micros. (by never I mean almsot never)
      Okay, now I'm confused,...
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      You never fold the 2nd nuts at micros. (by never I mean almsot never)


      I disagree, sorry. Don't be result orientated, better base your decisions on reads, not on "it will cost me only one cheeseburger to call".

      I'd call second nut flush for two reasons: to take a note about villain's play/his range is wide.

      First reason is stupid, because you'll be out of those limits in no time. The goal here is to adapt to the game, make quick odds/implied odds/discount odds calculations and learn to draw to the nuts (in FR).

      If, like you say, villains play almost 100% range, call them down, of course.

      when you have something that can turn into a monster draw on the turn. But that's not good strategy right? even when it's just one min-bet,...


      I am surprised how the element of gambling is often overlooked by articles and coaches. Yes, call the minbet obviously, you're getting great implied odds, BUT you must be confident with your postflop play. I mean, if turn gives you nut draw and villain bets pot, will you give up your hand, or maybe call turn, fold missed river? Whats your position? Is villain a regular or an tired man, relaxing after a day in the office? :f_p: Things to consider before calling min-bet.

      Later you will learn that minbet by PF aggressor usually means he's disgusted by the flop, but still thinks min c-bet is a good play here (lol). Raise 2/3rd and take it down. On higher limits people will min-bet/reraise, so be careful there.

      One fun thing I noticed about playing these fish is that occasionally I am all-in in a completely dominating situation,... ie. I had top set with KKxx and I was all in with someone with top two pair with no other draws to go with it. I win 99% of the time because villain needs runner-runner for quads. I guess this is what we go for,... but they seem few and far between.


      This. Always remember this when making a marginal call. There is always a better spot to put your money in. Don't get frisky - bet/bet/bet pot with nuts, in these limits opposition don't follow the tendencies or make any sort of reads.

      Will I eventually make the 10BB/100H if I play the solid strategy given in the articles at the micro-limits?


      10bb/100 in microstakes? Easily.

      Again, it's just my point of view, based on my experienced. Criticism and flaming are welcomed :f_p:

      Edited for spelling.
    • Jeero
      Jeero
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2009 Posts: 114
      Thanks again Jackalof. I guess calling is a bad move if villain is reasonable and known to only draw to the nuts. Since most villains on this limit are not reasonable, I can see the argument for calling. However, a nut flush has me drawing dead,... and every bad player will play a nut flush the same way I think. I have a feeling that a lot of players will play suited aces, regardless of the other two cards,... this is an assumption of course,... is it valid? If so, calling would be bad no?

      I see your point though,... if I can simply wait for situations where I'm a huge favourite, why take a risk in spots where I could be drawing dead? Hopefully a similar situation will come up and I can post the hand,...

      I'm finding that PLO isn't so much a "gambling" type game as I first thought,... the big play strategy suggests to wait for spots where you make the opponent make a huge gamble, but you're likely to be a huge favourite. In that regard FL is much more gambling oriented.