SSS- What u need to know , watch and read (still uploading)

    • fakedurrr
      fakedurrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 725
      Hey fellow PSist,
      I would like to make a thread for new players where they could find everything what they have to know and should know about SSS (I am absolutely new to it and I havent played it yet, jsut baout 1year ago for 100hand or so :) )
      I would like to provide reader with Articles whcich u have to read , maybe some blogs worth a minute, soem interestiing threads, videos etc.
      and I would also apreciate if u could post here some links as well so this would become nice Thread for all SSers and it could help anyone climbinng their limit

      so lets start with articles:

      Summary of SSS Articles
      [Basic] Completely new to poker? read theese
      What is the Short Stack Strategy? basic intorductory article

      How to Play Before the Flop Pre-flo play

      How to Play After the Flop Post-flo play

      or ALL in One

      After this I would love to arrange articles for their content like Post-flop play Preflop play, Psychology(BRM, Tilt control etc.) etc.

      Pre-flop Strategies
      Short Stack Strategy: Advanced Pre-flop Play

      Shortstack-Strategy: Sklansky-Chubukov numbers and preflop pushes

      Shortstack-Strategy: Adjusting the reraise-ranges

      Short Stack Strategy: Steals and Resteals

      Short Stack Strategy: The Isolation Raise



      Forum posts and Threads/Blogs

      A Mathematical View of SSS - SmileyPhills Blog where he tracks his road from NL10 up and is discussing strategies and best play Worth to read
      -well-organized
      -interesting reading
      -rating 10
      NL SSS Advanced by Xarry2 Blog Blog of PS.com coach. He explain some adv strategies and answers interesting Qs which were aske on his coaching Must Read
      -organized
      -must-read if u want to improve
      -rating 10


      Videos worth to watch more than once
      Advanced Short-Stack Strategy: Pre-flop Equity

      What to use as SSer
      -Startign Hand Chart (Basic SSS)
      -Some tracking software for ex. Pokerstrategy Elephant (free sofware offered by PS.com), Holdem Manager. PokerTracker3
      -Hand evaluation forum!!!
      -Equilator (Pokersrategy Equlator or Pokerstove)
      -or Forum for discussing some strategies etc.

      FAQs


      _______________________________________


      So guys what do u think of this? Is it worth continuing ? Should I add something?
      Also I have some questions of my own :)
      -1) I would lvoe to start and learn SSS and exploit everybody on a table. I would like to start on November if everything goes the way it should. So my question is: I would have about 300 to start with. I intent on playing NL20/25 to start with, is it a good idea? I would love to apply the most advanced strategies I can curectly learn and some I just wouldnt be able to use on NL10 cause there is more fish and it would be jsut too boring not to steal, resteal, squeeze, adapt to stats etc. so is it a good idea?

      -2) Is it worth playing SSS without any bonuses and rakeback?

      -3) Which site/network is best to star with? Ipoker?/titan?

      -4) Is SSS still profitable (the basicone) in theese days?

      this is everything for now from me ) :f_biggrin:

      _______________________________________


      Feel free to post ur feedback and any link u think I should edit here . Hope someone would read this and by our help it owuld become great learning tool for begginers

      Good luck on tables
  • 38 replies
    • AlexanderD22
      AlexanderD22
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2009 Posts: 377
      Go for Cake, rakeback is awesome. I am finally on an upswing but NL10 is pretty ridiculous, I mean it makes perfect sense to call a 5x BB raise with 83s right?
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      i think its a great idea.

      1: i think you can start at NL25
      2: why would you want to play without bonus or rakeback?
      3: stars, FTP if you want to use stats and cake if you dont.
      4: certainly i make a nice profit but its not as easy as it once was.
    • fakedurrr
      fakedurrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 725
      curectly I play on Pacific =no rakeback/no bonus just Rake :) and not sure if I already wagered enough to withraw but it doesnt matter caus eI want to hit 300 so that I can get full bonus on some site

      Today I jsut played about 300 hands when it crushed (Site crushed) and I dont really think that Basic strategy is profitale, maybe with bonuses and rakeback u can be brekeven but without bonuses I think u will jsut slowly bleed so I am stealing quite a lot
      and it all looks fine got once AAvsKKvs88 (missclick by solid guy :) )- surely I lost but who cares :D I was favourite

      okay, so I am gonna update it a little more
      I apreciate any feedback :) maybe even soem Admin/moderator could say their oppinion about this
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      i agree basic strategy wont get you far.
    • noclaninator
      noclaninator
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.12.2008 Posts: 312
      I'll post some stuff you probably should know:

      1: Basic SSS starting hands chart is not very good. I recommend something like the following:

      AQ+, TT+ from early
      AJ+, 88+, KQs from mid position
      and all kinds of trash depending on reads from late position

      2: I cannot stand blind battles if i play from the small blind. The trash you have to play out of position does not cut it for me, I just play push or fold. Sklansky pushes are way too tight as well since they were designed by playing a game where the opponent knows your cards. I use the following push range:

      22+, A2+, K3s+, K9o+, Q5s+, Q9o+, J7s+, J9o+, T6s+, T9o, 96s+, 98o, 86s, 75s, 65s, 54s. This range comes from page 99 of full tilt poker's strategy guide and is the most profitable i have seen. If any of you are push/folding from the sb then make sure you are using this range for sure. Pokerstrategy needs to put it into an article somewhere...

      3: What is a trash hand? If you have raised JJ or something and get check/raised on a board with one overcard, strongly consider calling the all in if it is a drawy board, but fold if the board is dry against unknowns. If you raise 3-4bb preflop and bet 4-6bb on the flop, half your stack is out there so you only need to win 25% of the time to make this call profitable. DO NOT FEAR THE OVERCARDS! If you have JJ and the flop comes Qd9d5s or something then YOU DO NOT FOLD!!! Call and pray :)

      4: If you multi table a lot, I recommend pokerstars. By far the best bonus for high volume players there. Otherwise, find a site with rakeback. Im playing on full tilt right now and its been really good money for me. The rakeback amounts to about +2bb/100 hands win rate. Lots of money to be had.

      Have an open mind, learn as much as you can, and crush every table you sit at.
    • fakedurrr
      fakedurrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 725
      noclaninator:
      yea, finally some great post :) ty for advise
      now as I am trying SSS out on Pacific (NL10, superconservative BRM ) I play acordingly to Basic strategy jsut from Early and mid positon, LP I wide my range, depending on the blinds, if they fold too muc or even if coldcall then fold to Cbet and from SB I raise almos t ATC cause I am sued to it from SnG :) but BB has to have stats udner 9/7 or 80+foldBBvsSBsteal
      but I think I will widen my range as u ahve writen, maybe I will consider fold sometimes jsut for balance

      to point 3) yea, Equity and odds are my close friends :) but when somebody is really tight and passive then I dont see myslef calling udenrpair even on drawy boards, but some manaical fish , why not
      but I raise 3.5 form LP (4bb other)
      really TY again for great post
    • Swire
      Swire
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2009 Posts: 320
      Originally posted by noclaninator
      I'll post some stuff you probably should know:

      1: Basic SSS starting hands chart is not very good. I recommend something like the following:

      AQ+, TT+ from early
      AJ+, 88+, KQs from mid position
      and all kinds of trash depending on reads from late position

      2: I cannot stand blind battles if i play from the small blind. The trash you have to play out of position does not cut it for me, I just play push or fold. Sklansky pushes are way too tight as well since they were designed by playing a game where the opponent knows your cards. I use the following push range:

      22+, A2+, K3s+, K9o+, Q5s+, Q9o+, J7s+, J9o+, T6s+, T9o, 96s+, 98o, 86s, 75s, 65s, 54s. This range comes from page 99 of full tilt poker's strategy guide and is the most profitable i have seen. If any of you are push/folding from the sb then make sure you are using this range for sure. Pokerstrategy needs to put it into an article somewhere...

      3: What is a trash hand? If you have raised JJ or something and get check/raised on a board with one overcard, strongly consider calling the all in if it is a drawy board, but fold if the board is dry against unknowns. If you raise 3-4bb preflop and bet 4-6bb on the flop, half your stack is out there so you only need to win 25% of the time to make this call profitable. DO NOT FEAR THE OVERCARDS! If you have JJ and the flop comes Qd9d5s or something then YOU DO NOT FOLD!!! Call and pray :)

      4: If you multi table a lot, I recommend pokerstars. By far the best bonus for high volume players there. Otherwise, find a site with rakeback. Im playing on full tilt right now and its been really good money for me. The rakeback amounts to about +2bb/100 hands win rate. Lots of money to be had.

      Have an open mind, learn as much as you can, and crush every table you sit at.

      Cool thanks for the info. Just wondering whats your theory on the amount you leave and rebuy at the table. Does that still stay the same as the basic strategy? or do you stay at the table with a BS
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      Originally posted by noclaninator

      22+, A2+, K3s+, K9o+, Q5s+, Q9o+, J7s+, J9o+, T6s+, T9o, 96s+, 98o, 86s, 75s, 65s, 54s. This range comes from page 99 of full tilt poker's strategy guide and is the most profitable i have seen. If any of you are push/folding from the sb then make sure you are using this range for sure. Pokerstrategy needs to put it into an article somewhere...
      it should depend on the stack. the smaller the stack the looser the range. because of risk/reward.

      Originally posted by noclaninator
      If you have JJ and the flop comes Qd9d5s or something then YOU DO NOT FOLD!!! Call and pray
      imo it depends on the opponent and if he is unknown then on the limit you play at.
      i wouldnt do it on the tables i play at unless i have a loose aggressive image or another reason to believe that i have low FE, I.E. in steal situations.
    • noclaninator
      noclaninator
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.12.2008 Posts: 312
      About my push range: It is based on: if your opponent adapts optimally to your push range, then this is the best push range possible for 20bb. If your opponents call your shoves with J8 offsuit, then it is time to drop the suited connectors from the push range :) Value town them with A4 offsuit. However, if your opponents know that A6 offsuit is an unprofitable call against this range then you have to include some so-called "semi-bluff hands". If you get called when you shove 76s, you will still have 35% equity on average, and a really good image boost to get random crap hands to pay off your pocket aces later.

      Imo, the reason short stack strategy works so well is that you make a bet such that if anyone reraises you they commit themselves. 12-15% of your stack size is good enough to do this. If they reraise you and you do not have a hand, you fold and lose 12-15%. However if you have aces and they reraise you, the money is going in and on average you will gain 60% of your stack. This does not happen when you are playing big stack because a reraise does not commit them then. As long as you can comfortably bet 12-15% of your stack then you can continue playing. If you have 20bb, you should bet 3bb. If you drop to 16bb, raise to 2.5bb. If you are up to 25bb, maybe a good 3.5bb raise is an order. Anything much higher than that and you are making awful 5bb or 6bb raises preflop which is terrible so you leave. Anywhere from 15bb to about 28bb is very playable. Basic strategy is king here.

      And I didn't fully explain the JJ thing. If for example you raise and the flop comes K72 rainbow and you get checkraised then it is an easy fold because your opponent cannot have a draw to reraise you with. Also with the right read you can fold here. I just make it standard to call shoves with one overcard on a drawy board in this situation since most opponents are capable of doing this with draws.

      Also, I think it is possible to play more profitably in SSS with a way way WAY wider range than any of you ever imagined. I will post this range when I am done working on it. This range is based on math I am doing right now and as a teaser, A9s is raisable from MP1. When I finish working on this I will try it and it might be enough for me to crack NL200.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      hmm i think i might try and widen my push range range.
      i try to avoid it however as it is obviously not the most profitable move against people who seldom defends. (i play without HUD so i cant just draw a line at a certain percentage)

      i would think that opponents very fast got a read and started calling ace rags so i think i would just drop the small connected and suited hands. or maybe just make sure not to projekt an image of stealpushing so often. what i mean by that is also stealpushing with small suiteds and connecters but avaoiding doing it several rounds in a row.

      i dont think you would be the first short stacker to try and play with a wide range but from what i have seen its never very profitable. but it sounds exciting and i hope it works out for you.

      i play something similar to the range you posted in your first post and i play nl200-600 and it works out well for me.
    • Kokaroc
      Kokaroc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.04.2008 Posts: 432
      Originally posted by noclaninator
      It would be nice to know your vpip and pfr on what limit you play :)
      Also what is your vpip/pfr raun?
      I started playing NL20 recently after beating NL10 at Cake and I don't like it very much, because you can't use HUD so I tend to play only a little advanced SSS.
      But I would say, that my VPIP is 10 and PFR 9,5

      And nice thread of course :)
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      12, 11 approximately.
      and since he is trying to crack nl200 i would guess he is either playing nl200 or playing nl100 taking stabs at nl200
    • jonnyquest
      jonnyquest
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2009 Posts: 285
      This is a great thread so far. Any of you guys want to post your own starting hands chart? It would be a great resource for guys like me. My stats recently have been about 13/11, is that okay?
    • tac3znarf
      tac3znarf
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2008 Posts: 257
      I do agrree with noclaninator,

      You need to adjust your playing hands based on the players on the table.

      I usually raise in MP3+ with K8s+ if the table is a little bit tight. This will compensate for the blinds I will be posting.
    • noclaninator
      noclaninator
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.12.2008 Posts: 312
      Well I made my first decent crack at NL200... Up 5.5 buyins today so a pretty solid result. I still do not feel like I am really outplaying them too much though. I feel like my money comes from luck more at this limit. However, I have seen a fair bit of mistakes being made. My utg raises are getting called by an AQ here, my steals getting called by J8s etc.

      I think that fold AKo and JJ to a reraise after you raise from under the gun is a fairly good play. Also, I have been raising 2.75x the blind rather than 3x so I save a bit of money versus a reraise.

      What does it take to make a decent profit at this limit? Some problems I think I am having include:

      Late position minraise steals. So far what I have been doing against a button minraise to 2bb is reraising to 5bb instead of shoving. I can possibly include some bluffs in this scenario or induce a weak shove. If sb open minraises then I call any 2 and stab at every flop or float if they bet. How do you guys deal with minraises?

      Resteals vs unknowns: Often I will post my big blind and it immediately gets raised before stats appear. What should I resteal against unknown here? So far i'm doing like AJ+ KQs 77+ but I have not had much success in this department. I reraised a KQs and ran it into pocket kings (fortunately my flush outs came through for me LOL). What do you guys raise versus unknowns?

      That's about it. I hope I have given someone out there some insight and please respond to this because I really have no idea what I am doing LOL.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      i wouldnt recommend any begginners to start raising k9s in mp3 though. they might get into some trciky situations.

      but i agree too that you should adapt your range to the players on the table. especially in lp, but not much in ep.

      @noclaninator i have been experimenting a lot too with how to deal with those kinds of steals.
      i like your line vs sb.
      vs bu its really hard because of position so i stick to resteal push even though it is probably not the best solution.
      these situations easily get out of hand though so be careful.

      i resteal about the same range vs unknowns.

      we discussed the same thing in this thread: highstakes minsteals
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Very nice post. I hadn't seen smileyphil's blog before and it is indeed excellent ;)

      Although this isn't true "beginner material" anymore - I think that for players advancing past the initial steps that this silver video is a must see: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/2319

      In general this coaching blog is also a must read: NL SSS Advanced by xarry2

      So definitely steps to include in the "next steps" part :)

      Aside from that - keep it up! :f_grin:

      Best regards
      SoyCD
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      i think the answer to late position minraise steals is to call from the big blind. check raise when u hit the flop, approx 33% of the time and fold when u dont hit the flop 66% of the time. this gives him no value for his minraise.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      and you would do this with any 2?
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