New FullTilt "Cashout" MTT Strategy?

    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/cashout-tournaments

      Initial thoughts?

      The only time I'd ever want to cash out from a tourney is if something urgent came up and I really had to go... otherwise, what's the point?

      - Can you think of any specific situation in such a tourney where cashing out some/most/all your stack would be the optimal strategy?

      - How do you think that other players will adjust, especially the fish? Will they look to tripe up early and cash out? How will this affect the EV of good players?
  • 22 replies
    • Frakkk
      Frakkk
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.01.2009 Posts: 93
      I think it will change the game. Half of your buyin goes to the Cashout Pool, the other half to the regular Prize Pool. Good players will still make money, just have to take these things into consideration. I think only bad players will cash out, or players with a huge chiplead. I wouldn't want to cripple my stack just to get some of my buyin back.
    • Frakkk
      Frakkk
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.01.2009 Posts: 93
      I just played one, 2+.25 double stack. As far as strategy goes, there is a huge step in payout from the final table. Busting in 10th might win you $7, but if you make it to the final table, you will automatically get money from the CashOut pool, that could be around $20-$80 depending on the chips, plus worst case scenario the money for 9th which was about $12. It was interesting to play, unfortunately I couldn't make it into the money. Next time:)
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Yeah it seems that these are all about making the final table... I read some discussions about ICM calculations changing in certain final table bubble situations, but overall the strategy seems to just play your game & never cashout.
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Played one with a mate the other day and had a bit of discussion about it. Obviously cashing out is very -EV cos you only get half you're money for the chips. overall i think this makes the tourney more +EV because some people cash out.

      Getting to the final table with as many chips as possible is HUGE though so I think it makes ICM calcs slightly more like a cash game

      I think the only time you could cash out is if stack is say 20,000 and blinds are 5000/10,000 and you are BB next hand AND the payout at that point is constant for the next ten people or so. Dunno if it would be +EV to cash out, probably not, but from a practical view it could be ok.
    • deVall3y
      deVall3y
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.01.2009 Posts: 554
      cashing out looks like a terrible thing to do.
      I did a very basic calculation like this: (excluding rake for simplicity's sake) pay $20 for t1500, cash out t1500 for $10.
      Its probably very profitable to play them (but not cash out) because cashing out generates dead money. For every chip the fish cash out they only get half of its original price.
    • rhinoneil
      rhinoneil
      Silver
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,159
      I think it is profitable to play if you make it to the final table as their will obviously be a decent amount in the cash out pool that has not been "claimed" by people who have bust out.
      In addition where people have already cashed out, for half the value as above, this makes the value of the prize pool itself higher
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      I think sometimes it makes sense to cashout...

      When the blinds are high (1000+) and you have about 10BB for example.
      I was in this situation, ITM. The prize for the current position was about 1.5BI. I was far away from the final table and could cash out 3.2BI or gamble with my shortstack.
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      thats what i was meaning but i think it needs to be more 2-3BB left to make it even close to the right move
    • KidPokersKid
      KidPokersKid
      Global
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 653
      The best time to cash out is when you have a massive chip lead going into HU play,,, seems like the only time it would be profitable to add to your overall prize
    • ksh198
      ksh198
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2008 Posts: 226
      yeah had 75 dollar worth of chips in a 10 dollar tournament(50k chips or something) then a german or french, don't remember but these 2 nationalitys sucked out like hell on me last week, else I would be millionare by now. Anyway I had KQ on JJ9T board and donkey shipped allin 30K into 20k pot, of course I called and piece of shit rivered J. I think it's a very good spot to cash out if you sit with a table with 3 or more german+french together. Ahh yeah I played another 100 dollar cashout, some german who raised/pushed like 50% vpip with blinds 100 200, my stack 3500, I got ATs as BB and ofc he shipped it, I called he had A7o and of course flopped a 7 even though I hit my draw I couldn't resuck. It really sucks to not be german or french, anyone know where I can change nationality at FT, I would like to try play as german french just for 1 day see how many final tables I made. Ohh yeah also another german, raised my JJ utg, MP GERMAN 3minbet with like 40 bbs deep each, I just call, flop JTx, I checkraise he ships it and I call, *pling* there was the K on the turn. Yeah french guy shipped JJ UTG in 100 or 50 tournament aswell, forgot whatever, I repushed KK, flop J. Yeahok anyway got like 200 more stories, should tell them, but please make tournaments with no french/ger please. or maybe insurance tournaments, like when the germans and french calls 50% of their stack with Q2o, you get your % of the EV you got combined with the worth of your chips shipped straight from their bankroll. would be perect. hope you get my point
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Originally posted by KidPokersKid
      The best time to cash out is when you have a massive chip lead going into HU play,,, seems like the only time it would be profitable to add to your overall prize
      When you get to the final table the cashout pool is divided among the players according to stacks, so no more cashing out is possible.
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      It seems that due to the cashout possibility a lot of fishes run with their chips after doubleup or so - that means the play comes to ITM much faster.
      I think you should play the tourney like any normal.
      Like said, cashout comes in question with 2-3 BBs at high blind levels (where you get like 5-10 buyins, but your stack compared to blinds is really small). Also when you just ran out of time and have to leave :P
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by ksh198
      yeah had 75 dollar worth of chips in a 10 dollar tournament(50k chips or something) then a german or french, don't remember but these 2 nationalitys sucked out like hell on me last week, else I would be millionare by now. Anyway I had KQ on JJ9T board and donkey shipped allin 30K into 20k pot, of course I called and piece of shit rivered J. I think it's a very good spot to cash out if you sit with a table with 3 or more german+french together. Ahh yeah I played another 100 dollar cashout, some german who raised/pushed like 50% vpip with blinds 100 200, my stack 3500, I got ATs as BB and ofc he shipped it, I called he had A7o and of course flopped a 7 even though I hit my draw I couldn't resuck. It really sucks to not be german or french, anyone know where I can change nationality at FT, I would like to try play as german french just for 1 day see how many final tables I made. Ohh yeah also another german, raised my JJ utg, MP GERMAN 3minbet with like 40 bbs deep each, I just call, flop JTx, I checkraise he ships it and I call, *pling* there was the K on the turn. Yeah french guy shipped JJ UTG in 100 or 50 tournament aswell, forgot whatever, I repushed KK, flop J. Yeahok anyway got like 200 more stories, should tell them, but please make tournaments with no french/ger please. or maybe insurance tournaments, like when the germans and french calls 50% of their stack with Q2o, you get your % of the EV you got combined with the worth of your chips shipped straight from their bankroll. would be perect. hope you get my point
      cant believe someone else is saying this, THESE ARE EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS! just exactly the same shit happends with me when I go allin vs germans, no shit, exactly the same, ex: JJ vs his 66, hit J on flop, turn 6 river 6 this was 2days ago, and just today, JJ vs 66 (again), 6 river. nice. loosing more then 80% of the time from them, at max they got 4outs(mostly only 2) and they hit.
    • ImAnAcehole9
      ImAnAcehole9
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 128
      Haha, you can add Canadians to that list.
    • TheClowns
      TheClowns
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.04.2009 Posts: 3,358
      And Egyptians, Americans, Chinese and all others. They don't have more luck than me or you. Stop complaining and just accept probabilities.
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      So i was playing the MiniFtops event #18 last night, a $20 cashout tournament.

      I entered with points and I found myself sitting on around 85K chips when the average stack was 22. Now, with 1500 players left and 720th place paying $18 I decided to make a partial cashout down to average stack. That gave me $120 or something. I doubled up and when there were 320 people I was chip leader with 320k.

      I then found myself in this peculiar situation:

      If I cashout for my whole stack RIGHT NOW, I will make another $660. 10th place (the one right outside final table bonanza) paid $500. 9th place paid $600 plus a share of the cashout pool that at that moment stood at around 40k.

      My bankroll in TOTAL was less than my chip worth at that point.

      What to do, what to do. After a long deliberation, I cashed out down to 10bb and went into push fold hoping to get lucky. Unfortunately I lost my 10bb but I made an overall profit of $500 or something out of 4 thousand full tilt points.

      At much later stages, when there are 30 people left, the average stack was 1M chips, which is $2000. Do you still refuse to cashout then?

      Do NOT underestimate the tactic of cashing out.
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      There might be spots where it's better to cashout a short stack if making it to the next payout level is too far away and you're at a tough table etc., then cashing out your chips and collecting the finishing payout is a better choice. But overall, collecting more chips AND increasing your possible finishing position is usually the better choice. But then again, if u bought in for points like excelgeo then cashing out and getting $500 can make sense depending on ur marginal utility of somethin or other. :f_p:
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      excelgeo,

      In a MiniFTOPs event maybe I'd do something like that. But as the chip leader, I'd stay with 20-30BB.
      But you didn't tell us the blind level.

      I'd do that because I'm not that confident in my game. It is a big event and probably there is a good percentage of good players in the field. But I'd keep a playable stack, just to have a better shot at the "bonanza".

      In normal tournaments with smaller buyins I would play my stack.
    • wquinn636
      wquinn636
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 64
      The question for me is, what's the use of normal tournaments when these exist? If you don't want to cash out, other players cashing out gives you a lot more value than a regular tournament does. And if you do want to cash out, well you have to play a cashout. It's +EV for everyone. Why aren't all tournaments like this?
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