How do you handle these hands ?

    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Hey, im having alot of problems with the following goddamn hand: AKo/s. I cant say that I win more then 10% of any AK, if it was a preflop allin or on the turn whatever and however I play with AK, its getting beaten. Most of my money is going there. Somebody raises before you 1$ on a NL25 table, im with 5$ stack, should I start call and fold on flop if there's no A or K ? its getting really sick.
      Also on a NL25 table with 5$ buyin, what the hell you can do with any low pair (66+) on any LP ? raise 1$, 95% to not hit the flop, cbet will make you lose more then 70% of the time, simply fold or limp low pairs always ? I've read all strategies, but nowhere is said how to stop losing with AK...I checked in the equilator what chances I had after each allin with AK, and the minimum 35% I always have, most of the time 45% and still lose 80% of the time..
      Also, what can you do when you wait 1 more card for ur flush, playing as the pot odds say and that flush is coming like..twice in a week ? isnt it about 20% per card ? its sick really..if anyone has same experience share with me please.thanks
  • 18 replies
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Hey there,

      Imo, From what I can see here your stats are a little bit off; There is no need to go after a flush draw if the guy bets more than 1/3 than the pot, because in the long run you will just end up losing money for sure. (Unless in a situation like, you have AKs and hit flush draw + 2 overcard, then it'S different)

      As for your AKo situation, it seems like to me you are getting badlucky, eventually your AKo will probably pay you off many times in a row, don't give up :s_biggrin:
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Im not chasing the flushdraws, but on a 3$ pot at flop, u have a flushdraw, u can easily call 50cent or even you raise 50cent dont you ? i guess u should, but the flushes are just not comming.
      AKo, is always preflop allin, really? I wanna see if anyone plays AK differently, like folding even.
    • kAoChAn
      kAoChAn
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2009 Posts: 76
      I'm a noob and I just want to answer your question...^_~
      if I have AK, I wouldn't go all in after flop (given your example), probably make a continuation bet first and see if somebody's hit anything on the board (which sounds unconventional but based on experience, even if you raise pre-flop a lot of poor players would call then get lucky with the flop which is frustrating!!! going all in pre-flop works but if you're surrounded by good players you'll just end up with the blinds which is equally frustrating...)
      I think this really depends on the read...if you have sensed that the other players just wanted to see the flop then go all in after the turn, I've laid down AK several times before because the other players (as I've correctly read their hands) have trips or two pairs...it's not really my favorite hand...
    • michaelqian
      michaelqian
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 512
      It sounds to me like your knowledge and skills isn't up to the NL25 level yet.

      I would recommend playing NL2 or maximum NL5 BSS, get a good grasp of the game before moving to higher limits.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      if u weren't so lucky maybe we could take you seriously
    • inf4my
      inf4my
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.02.2008 Posts: 91
      After 100,000 hands, my stats say:

      AKo wins 78% of the time, with 0.68BB/hand
      AKs wins 83% of the time, with 1.56BB/hand

      The only hands that have better stats than these are AA,KK,QQ (surprise)

      Considering how badly I run, I'd say you're doing something horribly wrong if you're losing consistently with AK.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Funny replies. So you have AK MP2 position lets say, no limpers before you, you raise 1$ (NL25). You got 1 guy calling, flop is 5 8 2, you cbet to 1.5$ or 2$. he goes allin, YOU FOLD ????? if not, then you go allin and lose coz lets say he has 66 or whatever low pair or 8 4 and you dont hit one of your 6 outs. So I should fold everytime somebody with 50$ cash on the table raises me back, after I invested 3$ in the hand and when I need to pay 2$ into the 8$ pot to see if I hit any of my 6outs ?

      Really I dont get whats the horrible play. The problem is that there are no reads, when you made the cbet, there is no turning back, if you dont cbet, they check raise you or just even raise on flop.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by michaelqian
      It sounds to me like your knowledge and skills isn't up to the NL25 level yet.

      I would recommend playing NL2 or maximum NL5 BSS, get a good grasp of the game before moving to higher limits.
      Well I started with the 50$ capital on FTP and im silver as you see now, having 450$ without depo and without winning anything big, just grinding. I cant be such a noob
    • michaelqian
      michaelqian
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 512
      Ok I assume you grinded your way through NL2, NL5 and NL10?

      Do you use Poker Tracker or similar software?

      It's just that for most players AK should be a winning hand, one of the most profitable hands in fact.
    • inf4my
      inf4my
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.02.2008 Posts: 91
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      Funny replies. So you have AK MP2 position lets say, no limpers before you, you raise 1$ (NL25). You got 1 guy calling, flop is 5 8 2, you cbet to 1.5$ or 2$. he goes allin, YOU FOLD ????? if not, then you go allin and lose coz lets say he has 66 or whatever low pair or 8 4 and you dont hit one of your 6 outs. So I should fold everytime somebody with 50$ cash on the table raises me back, after I invested 3$ in the hand and when I need to pay 2$ into the 8$ pot to see if I hit any of my 6outs ?

      Really I dont get whats the horrible play. The problem is that there are no reads, when you made the cbet, there is no turning back, if you dont cbet, they check raise you or just even raise on flop.
      This post tells me that you either haven't played very many hands in total, or you have a selective memory, and are only remembering the times that people re-raise you.

      Fortunately, there's a little program called PokerTracker that will solve this dilemma.

      It's easy to say things like, "I ALWAYS GET RE-RAISED OMG", when you don't have any proof to back it up. Let me present you with some real numbers...

      This graph below shows every time I've had AK, and gotten into the exact same situation that you described. The first thing you'll notice, is that it doesn't even happen very often. Only 213 times in 65 days. In those 213 times, I raised pre-flop, and I raised on the flop every time. Each time the graph goes down, that means I got re-raised and was forced to fold.




      You can clearly see that even though I have to fold sometimes and lose my invested money, in the LONG RUN this play is very profitable. 170BB/100 hands to be exact. What that means is if I was put into this situation every single hand, I'd be a freaking millionaire. So for you to say that it is unprofitable to make this move is just hilarious, no offense :)

      Poker is all about situations, and how to profit from them over millions of hands. You may get re-raised 20x in a row with AK, but you have to understand that it's just variance. There's no way that will keep happening in the long run.

      GL
    • Monkeye
      Monkeye
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2009 Posts: 1,201
      Today I didn't like AK also I play NL10.

      When I opened AK preflop to 0.40 I got reraised to 1.2 so i am forced to fold. When I reraised preflop to 1.2-1.5 villain pushed and I am also forced to fold.

      I thought one time when villain reraised me I call him. What happened? I lost a bigger pot.

      So don't do strange things with AK it is only Ace high.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by michaelqian
      Ok I assume you grinded your way through NL2, NL5 and NL10?

      Do you use Poker Tracker or similar software?

      It's just that for most players AK should be a winning hand, one of the most profitable hands in fact.
      No I didnt played NL2 NL5 (just at other sites some months ago), I started with NL10 then some sng what I didnt liked then back to NL10, and switched to NL25 when I had about 400$ (lets say after doing about 150$profit, coz i had bonuses and stuff).

      I dont use HEM or this PS, just used elephant in the beginning to check my hands if I played right. Though I wanna use HEM just dont wanna buy it yet, I dont feel confident many times...

      PS. got 505$ now
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by Monkeye
      Today I didn't like AK also I play NL10.

      When I opened AK preflop to 0.40 I got reraised to 1.2 so i am forced to fold. When I reraised preflop to 1.2-1.5 villain pushed and I am also forced to fold.

      I thought one time when villain reraised me I call him. What happened? I lost a bigger pot.

      So don't do strange things with AK it is only Ace high.
      Wait a second, doesnt the sss says you go allin with AK if its 1 guy vs you ?

      When
      you go all-in with...
      exactly one opponent raised before you.
      JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AK
      an opponent re-raised after you.
      TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AK

      You guys all fold AK preflop if you get reraised and you have short stack ?
      And how do you fold it on the flop after you do cbet, 3$ out of your 5$ is in the pot, lets say you dont hit, but still you have 2 overcards, thats 6outs, for that you dont give the rest of your 2$ and fold ?
      Thanks
    • Monkeye
      Monkeye
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2009 Posts: 1,201
      Sorry I forgot to tell you that I play with big stack strategy.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by Monkeye
      Sorry I forgot to tell you that I play with big stack strategy.
      Thats interesting then, I've seen loads of guys with 100+ blinds on the table going allin with AK preflop, like 30-40$ on NL25. AK-A10 is one of the hardest hands for me, because if I dont hit the flop its really dead road, and cbet i do like 30-40% of the time, after a cbet there isnt really a way out. On BSS its easier in a way, coz you have alot on risk so you need to fold, but on SSS ? 3$ invested and 2$ on 8$ pot for 6outs to see turn river..hard to fold really. And most of the times you fold they have Ax which hurts to see after. I want somebody who plays SSS to tell me what he does with AK-A10 range, lets say MP3 or LP. For me A9+ from LP is a good blindsteal hand with 3BB. I won a satellite for the double deuce on FTP and played it, sadly just as I got in the money I lost with AK, one more short stacker had AK and a big stack with 77 so no AK came.. pity, I had high hopes :) sorry for offtopic.
    • inf4my
      inf4my
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.02.2008 Posts: 91
      Did you really just completely ignore everything I wrote?

      I explained in detail that C-Betting with AK is without a doubt an extremely profitable play. Look at the damn graph and read what I said.

      Your opponents are going to fold most of the time. So if you bet 4bb PF, the pot is going to be around 8-10bb

      At this point you can either bet 5bb as a semi-bluff or just shove your stack since you'll be committed anyway. Villain folds almost every time.

      This line has been statistically proven to work over millions and millions of hands. You can't play a few hundred hands and say "WELL I ALWAYS GET RERAISED". That is simply not true, and if it actually is happening to you a lot, it's just bad luck and you need to understand that poker is heavily affected by variance.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by inf4my
      Did you really just completely ignore everything I wrote?

      I explained in detail that C-Betting with AK is without a doubt an extremely profitable play. Look at the damn graph and read what I said.

      Your opponents are going to fold most of the time. So if you bet 4bb PF, the pot is going to be around 8-10bb

      At this point you can either bet 5bb as a semi-bluff or just shove your stack since you'll be committed anyway. Villain folds almost every time.

      This line has been statistically proven to work over millions and millions of hands. You can't play a few hundred hands and say "WELL I ALWAYS GET RERAISED". That is simply not true, and if it actually is happening to you a lot, it's just bad luck and you need to understand that poker is heavily affected by variance.
      I know that in theory AK should win most of the cbets, and maybe I dont have enough hands played, but in my game they dont really fold on flop sadly, and showdown winning with AK yet is huge loss. I understand its bad luck as I saw most of other players getting a 40-50blinds with AKo/s, just wanted to see if anyone is actually folds after a cbet on flop coz its bad imo, otherwise my play is good, my luck is not yet. Is there any free program that can make graphs of the hand histories like you did ?
    • inf4my
      inf4my
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.02.2008 Posts: 91
      PokerTracker3 is free for 2 months as a trial version.

      Or you can use the Elephant from this website, but you'll need a lot of strategypoints first.