missed p/p oops wihout incetive (nl100)

    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      sample hand
      nl100sh
      everyone has bout 100bucks
      hero (sb) dealt 88
      CO raises to 4 Hero calls
      Flop: 10,7,4 rainbow
      Hero ?

      Possibilities
      check/fold- too nitty considering u often have the best hand
      donk bet/fold- lose value b/c villian will often cbet, although we do get pot control
      check/raise, reevaluate on turn- get the pot plus villians cbet, negitive is that we create a big pot with mediocre hand
      check/call, check/call, check/fold- again kinda nity, negative is no FE and our opponent could 3 barrel bluff, also allow villian 2 free cards positive is we keep the pot small and induce a 2nd barrel on turn
      Check/call, raise/fold (or floating)-same benifit and flaws as check/raising but we allow villian a free card
  • 12 replies
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      These spots are hard for me too.
      I play NL10 , NL25 SH.
      check/fold is not an option here. We have just too often the best hand.
      check/raise seems too strong for me, we turn our hand into a bluff. But it is considerable since there are 5 overcards, that may hit our opponent if he isnt ahead yet.
      I dont use donkbetting here often, he could call with overcards or some underpairs, but there is big chance he doesnt respect donkbets and bluffraises us.
      Mostly I call flop, call almost any turn, fold river. On NL10, NL25 I dont believe that opponent 3 barrel bluffs enough often.
      Floating is an option, if he has something like JJ, Tx and on turn comes A or K, it is possible.
    • KidPokersKid
      KidPokersKid
      Global
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 653
      Originally posted by kosmonaut111
      These spots are hard for me too.

      Floating is an option, if he has something like JJ, Tx and on turn comes A or K, it is possible.
      This sounds reasonable, depending on the Villan you can call flop and donk on a scare card OR IP you can raise a good turn card for you if you think you are ahead and he will call with worse and take the Free SD (works on drawy boards vs those guys who love to chase their draws because they will donk when they hit)
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      I tend to c/c flop, c/c turn or bet turn if no cbet on the flop, then use stats+reads+boards to determine river action, but yeah it's mostly a c/f unless I have very good reason to believe he might be 3barrelling.

      I don't like raise/folding at any point in the hand because you turn a good showdown-worthy hand into a bluff.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      very clear C/C flop, you usually have the best hand vs his preflop range and he will very often cbet. turn C/C if you think he will bluff his air, like vs an aggressive villain on Q or K turn, and on other turns probably just C/F, as he won't barrel worse and betting would just valuetown yourself vs Tx

      if you think he can 3barrel, then you can calldown, e.g. turn Q and river A and a villain who isn't not capable of valuebetting very thin
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
      Silver
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      I agree with pretty much to what was said: i would check/call the flop and reassess on the following streets attending the board texture, reads and stats (e.g. flop cbet%, turn cbet%, AF and Agg% in each street, PFR by position and Steal% since opponent raised from CO, etc.). Most of the time you'll be ahead.
      Ideally and obviously depending on the opponent it would probably be preferable to 3Bet PF. It could prevent you from having to play OOP and avoid though decisions postflop.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      3-bet preflop.... problem solved.

      We do not cold-call medium pps in the blinds vs CO or BU raise.
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Originally posted by Dragar
      3-bet preflop.... problem solved.

      We do not cold-call medium pps in the blinds vs CO or BU raise.
      Actually, that's not a rule, and there are some very good arguments for just calling 88-TT from the blinds and 3betting everything else. I would only 3bet 88-TT if I think I'm well ahead of villain's 3bet CALLING range. Otherwise I'm just wasting my hand as a bluff.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by nafar84
      Originally posted by Dragar
      3-bet preflop.... problem solved.

      We do not cold-call medium pps in the blinds vs CO or BU raise.
      Actually, that's not a rule, and there are some very good arguments for just calling 88-TT from the blinds and 3betting everything else. I would only 3bet 88-TT if I think I'm well ahead of villain's 3bet CALLING range. Otherwise I'm just wasting my hand as a bluff.
      We are at most times.

      Secondly.. its difficult to play 88-TT OOP with overcards on the board.

      Please calculate how much money you lose 3-betting and folding to push or taking down he pot if its K high etc. against cold calling and doing that c/c c/c approach etc.
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Originally posted by Dragar
      We are at most times.

      Secondly.. its difficult to play 88-TT OOP with overcards on the board.

      Please calculate how much money you lose 3-betting and folding to push or taking down he pot if its K high etc. against cold calling and doing that c/c c/c approach etc.
      It's also a question of playability and extracting maximum value from our hand. Good players IP will often have the intention to float and bluffraise many flops, asking us if we really want to commit ourselves to the hand.

      NL50 for this example:

      We are SB with 99, a 20/18 reg opens from the button...

      Scenario 1:
      ---------------
      Reg opens $2
      Hero 3bets to $7
      Reg calls

      Flop (Pot = $14): J58r
      Hero cbets $9
      Reg calls

      Turn (Pot = $32): K
      Hero...??

      So here we have invested $16 in a pot OOP against a good reg, it's only the turn and we have NO IDEA where we stand. Our options here are to either bluff or check/fold (often with the best hand)... sure, sometimes villain will fold the flop but it doesn't matter that we have 99 - we could be doing this with 72o.

      Scenario 2:
      ---------------
      Reg opens $2
      Hero calls

      Flop (Pot = $4): J58r
      Hero check/calls $3

      Turn (Pot = $10): K
      Hero check/calls $7

      River (Pot = $24): 6
      So now we have invested $12, we're already in the river and we have a good chance to get to showdown. We're check/folding here of course but at least we'll be reasonably sure that we're beat. We already got value from many Ax hands, low pps/scs, QT etc.. that 2barreled the king and will give up on the river.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      I think the general questions is more how loose our opponent is.

      Most players I encouter have a big steal range from CO and raising range and a small calling range + they give you credit for a good hand and will not really float that much and they will never bluff raise the turn.

      I just hate the line c/c c/c c/f....

      Its quiet easy to put villain on a range of hands if we 3-bet OOP. Most standard are TT+, AQ. Its never really a K, its not low PPs.. Never really KQ, very rarely AJ. Hence our play after the flop is much easier.

      The second scenario you described.... they are taking you to value town so often, with cards like QJ which they would fold to a 3-bet.

      Oh and here is another scenario:

      Scenario 3:
      ---------------
      Reg opens $2
      Hero calls

      Flop (Pot = $4): 357r
      Hero check/calls $3

      Turn (Pot = $10): 2
      Hero check/calls $7

      River (Pot = $24): 5

      Villain bets 14$

      Now?


      I want easier decisions when I play poker. The c/c line sucks with overcards and undercards, especially turn c/c. A reg can fire a third barrel and why shouldn't he? You just c/c c/c and hence don't hold much or you will let it go on the river.. because well thats the c/c line... passive and loose.... don't see much +ev in it in the long run.

      Like in the example you gave. In his mind you can have J, but only very rarely will you have Kx here since you wouldn't float that on the turn.. like KQ float.. very strange. Sometimes KJ, but wouldn't you raise the turn then or bet out river?
      Hence any J will fold to river barrel, any pair will fold, except Kx... so yeah bet again from time to time.

      At the end of it, giving initiative to your opponent on all streets OOP holding a marginal hand compared to the flop and turn which you have to fold to a river bet is a pretty bad idea.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      I think check calling is bad, your giving villiain two more shots at hitting his overards or getting more value from his made hand.

      for me its either check/raise flop - now i either win the pot now or fold to RR as i know im beat.

      or check/call flop - donk turn if no overcards appear.

      you need to determined the strength of your hand at some stage & check calling down wont do it, Why call 2 streets then fold to river bet, a decent plyer will fire the river neway so youve just wasted your investment on flop & turn
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Originally posted by Dragar

      Its quiet easy to put villain on a range of hands if we 3-bet OOP. Most standard are TT+, AQ. Its never really a K
      You're making him fold worse hands and only continue with better ones... what's the point? 99=72o here. Also, are you willing to put your stack on the line based on your "read" that he never has a K? Oops, he had AK this time and you know what he'll be doing with your $50 when he cashes it out.


      Oh and here is another scenario:

      Scenario 3:
      ---------------
      Reg opens $2
      Hero calls

      Flop (Pot = $4): 357r
      Hero check/calls $3

      Turn (Pot = $10): 2
      Hero check/calls $7

      River (Pot = $24): 5

      Villain bets 14$

      Now?
      Obvious fold, he either has TT+ or a full house. We still only invested $12 to find that out. Would you have preferred to 3bet it and face a decision for your stack on the turn after you've invested $16 already? Which of the two decisions is easier?

      As for 3barrelling, well I already said before that personally it's not an automatic c/f for me depending on stats+reads+board, esp against someone with whom I have some history. It's not an easy decision but at least it improves your hand reading, whereas by raise/folding you're not really reading his hand - you're just asking him to fold worse hands and continue with better.