SSS vs BSS

    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      Hi there,

      I was playing casually SSS for the last month and found it extremelly swingy. In one session is not unusuall to move 10BI up or down. Currently I am in a downswing of 25BI. What are your experiences with downswings?

      As for the downswing I am considering to switch to the BSS, however I do not know how swingy it can be in comparison to the SSS. In my opinion SSS consists maily of stealing that tries to cover the blinds for the session, and flipping coin with edge. Am I right? Could switching to BSS make my sessions less swingy?

      Thank for you advices
  • 15 replies
    • tac3znarf
      tac3znarf
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2008 Posts: 257
      BSS is more swingy than SSS..

      You can easily have a swing of 3-5 full BI in one session.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      25 BI is a big downswing imo, and allthough it happens every once in a while i would start to worry. could it be that it is affecting your game?
    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      Hey there,

      of course I am worried. I spend digging in the SSS for the long time and the results are nowhere. It is possible that the badbeats are affecting my play, but not to huge extend. Today session was definitely +ev and should end in positive numbers, however it ended up - 7BI.

      I know that the BSS can loose 100BB on one bad call and therefore it can be more swingy. However the SSS mostly fliping the coin with some edge that leads to swings as well. What I would like to compare is profitable BSS and SSS player. Which of them is going to have more swingy sessions?

      I think that the development of the pokerplayer should tend to the BSS. SSS is great for clearing bonuses and mastering your preflop game (understanding relationship between equity and fold equity that computation can lead to some unexpected +ev pushes prefop.) Anyway I know that at some time I want to switch to the BSS, but do not know the right timing for it.
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      if you worry at all about losing with sss u will be costing yourself in my experience.
      to be successfull u need to be sure and confident u have an edge everytime u put money into the pot. psychology and control over your own mind is essential for poker profits.

      to gain confidence u have that edge u need experience and u need to constantly check your game for leaks and make corrections.

      sss can be developed far beyond the basic strategy and can be very profitable. this month i made 6bb/100 hands played at nl100. im fairly new to poker and i know next month ill make more because i tweek stuff constantly to try to boost my win rate. i am rolled for NL600 but i am happy building my game like a machine that will generate profit as i fine tune it.

      im also aware that many people use this sss more effectively than me so i am eager to learn.
    • AlexanderD22
      AlexanderD22
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2009 Posts: 377
      Originally posted by Ishindar
      if you worry at all about losing with sss u will be costing yourself in my experience.
      to be successfull u need to be sure and confident u have an edge everytime u put money into the pot. psychology and control over your own mind is essential for poker profits.

      to gain confidence u have that edge u need experience and u need to constantly check your game for leaks and make corrections.

      sss can be developed far beyond the basic strategy and can be very profitable. this month i made 6bb/100 hands played at nl100. im fairly new to poker and i know next month ill make more because i tweek stuff constantly to try to boost my win rate. i am rolled for NL600 but i am happy building my game like a machine that will generate profit as i fine tune it.

      im also aware that many people use this sss more effectively than me so i am eager to learn.
      Care to share your ranges? My experiment with Strict SSS ends tomorrow and I think I will be mixing some more open SSS and BSS at lower limits.

      Strict SSS has been a major disappointment, luckily I have recouped most my SSS losses with PLO winnings.
    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      I am eager to learn, but at the moment loosing confidence in the edge. If you would have some time I would be grateful if you could look at my database and coment on some hands I played.

      Congrats on your run.
    • michaelqian
      michaelqian
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 512
      I don't think BSS is more swingy, especially for good tight players.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      wow nice winrate ishindar. i 'only' managed about 5 this month, but i also crashed and burned on nl1k.

      i agree 100% with what you say about developing on sss. its definately the way to go and basic sss wont get you very far.

      spot your opponents weaknessses and exploit them.

      i think BSS is more swingy than SSS because on a lucky or unlucky day you can win or loose much more.

      this is my graph of the last 3 months and as you can see its not very swingy. its not completely accurate, (about 10% of the hands and winnings are missing) but it shows a tendency.

    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      and here is a 3 month BSS graph, from anoher player.
      imo the bss graph is the most swingy


    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      Ok guys seeing your graphs and hoping you are not only lucky, can conclude that I have some MAJOR leak in my play.

      Anyway I wanted to ask as I am playing a bit advanced SSS already with steals and resteals and adjusting the reraise range, however I play at NL10 with no rakeback. Question is if I should adjust at these level or not? Stealing seems profitable for me however as well as folding JJ and QQ to the player with pfr 3.

      These days I will dig in my database, and if anybody wants to help me just add me on skype - I have the same name as my nick name.
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      Originally posted by AlexanderD22
      Originally posted by Ishindar
      if you worry at all about losing with sss u will be costing yourself in my experience.
      to be successfull u need to be sure and confident u have an edge everytime u put money into the pot. psychology and control over your own mind is essential for poker profits.

      to gain confidence u have that edge u need experience and u need to constantly check your game for leaks and make corrections.

      sss can be developed far beyond the basic strategy and can be very profitable. this month i made 6bb/100 hands played at nl100. im fairly new to poker and i know next month ill make more because i tweek stuff constantly to try to boost my win rate. i am rolled for NL600 but i am happy building my game like a machine that will generate profit as i fine tune it.

      im also aware that many people use this sss more effectively than me so i am eager to learn.
      Care to share your ranges? My experiment with Strict SSS ends tomorrow and I think I will be mixing some more open SSS and BSS at lower limits.

      Strict SSS has been a major disappointment, luckily I have recouped most my SSS losses with PLO winnings.
      basic sss is only really a breakeven strategy. its good for learning discipline and gaining experience of how the game is played by the different player types.
      there seems to be two types of advanced SSS players, the rakeback whores and the Lag style. the rakebackwhore will have a bb/100 of > 2 and playes tons of tables. The lag type plays few tables with great percision in chosing his spots and can make many tricky plays with his short stack and can have a much bigger win rate than the rakebackwhore but of course much less hands played.

      I play a lag style of SSS with vpip 18 and pfr 13.2 so i can only really give tips on this play style.
      the biggest advancement i made in my SSS game was to throw away my basic charts and make a new one. I stopped blindly playing hands based on the chart and my position. my new chart was based on what prf the raising villan had. I started to play hands only when i was sure i was ahead of the villans range. so i would check his pfr stat and i would check my chart to see if my hole cards were ahead of his pfr range. so if his pfr was 4 i would trow away my JJ or AKs even and only call with qq+. if his pfr was 10 then i could play 99, AJs. to develop this further i started to check the villans pfr in the position he is sitting in for better percision. soon i could open up that range and play loser in position against fish etc. the chart i use is this

      (pfr 2) KK+ , (pfr 4) QQ+, (pfr 6) AKo JJ+, (pfr 8) AQs, TT+, (pfr 10) AJs 99+, (pfr 12) AJ 99+

      with experience u will learn to lure players preflop and avoid players making plays.

      u can then move on to squeeze play in late position raising limpers hard when u are ahead of their range.

      steals and resteals are another profitable add-on.

      and just when the villan thinks he has a handle on your game, you learn to polarise your ranges :D
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      @ raun i would prefer your win rate at your stakes :)
      cant wait to move up soon!
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      @loop looks like you are making progress already and going in the right direction.
      it was just my experience but my game didnt take off until i moved up to NL25 simply because the villans start to become readable and responsive at NL25. I found villans at NL10 were very random in their actions. so it might be worth your while moving up asap.
    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      @Ishindar
      I found them extremely random as they are able to play almost any 2 cards if they find it interesting. Why not to call tight pfr with J5o, if the Jakson Five is your favorite band. :)

      I considered moving up the limit by depositing some funds, however I am not confident at the moment. If you would suggest 5 days ago I would go for it but the losses of last days are not OK. I hope I will not go busto with my BR but still going down after yesterday session.

      Anyway I think I found the leak in my game. I play agressivelly multiway pots what is obviously -ev and costed me a lot of money.

      Still I have a question how do you guys play when you probably do have a second pair. So let say you have JJ, QQ, KK, and flop comes Axx. By digging in the database I see that oponents is likely call with Ax preflop. Therefore it is probably better to cbet(depending on oponent) and fold to any resistance.

      Another question is how do you play preflop with many limpers? With two and more limpers if we decide to cbet we have to go AI. Floping pair happens 26% time.

      Analising this scenario:
      raising 6bb.
      3 times you raise 6bb(asume 2 limpers and one caller) and we do not hit the flop. Pot= 14,5bb. We fold every time. Costs 18bb.
      1 time we hit and make 22,5bb.
      Therefore 22,5-18= 4,5bb profit

      going all in.
      Doing this with suited A10+, TT-88, KQs gives us 48% equity agains 10% range.
      Let say that the limping range is 25%, and one will call us with 10% range.
      Therefore 15 times we take 3,5bb. That is 52,5bb.
      If he calls 6 times we loose and 4 time we win. 120-80=40.
      Profit 12,5 what is more than in the first scenario.

      Anway how do you approcha these problems as you do not have nearly enhough time to compute it on the tables.
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      Originally posted by loop2troop
      @Ishindar
      I found them extremely random as they are able to play almost any 2 cards if they find it interesting. Why not to call tight pfr with J5o, if the Jakson Five is your favorite band. :)

      I considered moving up the limit by depositing some funds, however I am not confident at the moment. If you would suggest 5 days ago I would go for it but the losses of last days are not OK. I hope I will not go busto with my BR but still going down after yesterday session.

      Anyway I think I found the leak in my game. I play agressivelly multiway pots what is obviously -ev and costed me a lot of money.

      Still I have a question how do you guys play when you probably do have a second pair. So let say you have JJ, QQ, KK, and flop comes Axx. By digging in the database I see that oponents is likely call with Ax preflop. Therefore it is probably better to cbet(depending on oponent) and fold to any resistance.

      Another question is how do you play preflop with many limpers? With two and more limpers if we decide to cbet we have to go AI. Floping pair happens 26% time.

      Analising this scenario:
      raising 6bb.
      3 times you raise 6bb(asume 2 limpers and one caller) and we do not hit the flop. Pot= 14,5bb. We fold every time. Costs 18bb.
      1 time we hit and make 22,5bb.
      Therefore 22,5-18= 4,5bb profit

      going all in.
      Doing this with suited A10+, TT-88, KQs gives us 48% equity agains 10% range.
      Let say that the limping range is 25%, and one will call us with 10% range.
      Therefore 15 times we take 3,5bb. That is 52,5bb.
      If he calls 6 times we loose and 4 time we win. 120-80=40.
      Profit 12,5 what is more than in the first scenario.

      Anway how do you approcha these problems as you do not have nearly enhough time to compute it on the tables.
      if I have KK or QQ on an A high board ill conti bet and fold to resistance as you say :)
      against limpers preflop, i raise 3bb +1 per limper but this can depend on how much action i want.
      u can flop a pair 32% of the time, http://www.pokerjesusonline.com/hand_probabilities.htm

      weither i go all in or just raise preflop depends as much on the villan types im facing as my hole cards and also position is extremely important as id be more likely to push all in in the sb or bb, its very situation dependent.