nl600 or not?

    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      i know i asked you this same question about nl1k a while ago. but now i face the same dilemma on nl600.

      i am doing well on nl400 and nl200 with an avg winrate around 5-6bb/100.

      yet on nl600 i am only breaking even and i am even running far above ev.

      i dont have a large samplesize cause there arent so many nl600 tables. so far i have played around 3k hands.

      my dilemma is that on one hand i want to move back up to nl600 to make more money. and i think i should be able to beat it since i beat nl 200 and nl400 and a lot of the players are the same.

      on the other hand i dont want to waste time being breakeven or worse on nl600 when i could have been playing nl200 and nl400 tables instead profitably.

      my BR is around 12k$ so from a BRM point of view i could play NL2k.

      what do you think?
  • 22 replies
    • vladnz
      vladnz
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2007 Posts: 1,355
      wtf? u playing nl600 with 12k bankroll ?

      iI m really sure that players who are playing nl2k have about 100k bankroll
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      SSS hehe. so i have 100 BI's for NL600 which is fine.

      anyway im not about to jump to nl2k...
    • vladnz
      vladnz
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2007 Posts: 1,355
      Originally posted by raun
      SSS hehe. so i have 100 BI's for NL600 which is fine.

      anyway im not about to jump to nl2k...
      aham sorry bro i thought u are playing Big Stack
    • shortfuse
      shortfuse
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 450
      3k hands is nothing.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      i know but with the few available tables it would take a year to get a decent sample. but i take it you think i should keep trying then?

      but you can also see the dilemma right?
    • Snodreliss
      Snodreliss
      Silver
      Joined: 23.12.2007 Posts: 1,280
      If you only think about shorttherm profit, play nl200-400. If you want to make more in the long run, keep improving and play nl600+ when it's ok for your BR.
    • csnmf
      csnmf
      Global
      Joined: 22.11.2006 Posts: 444
      How many hands have you played at nl200/400 as that winrate seems very high at 2.5BB-3BB/100 for an SSS player, it wouldn't surprise me that you are running good at those limits as dont even the very best SSS players only make 1-2BB/100?

      But of course 3k hands are nothing, all-in EV means not alot even over a big sample.
    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      5-6bb/100 at nl200/400. again what is your sample size?
      maybe i should play sss at these limits. i thought sss was not profitable after nl100
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      Originally posted by csnmf
      How many hands have you played at nl200/400 as that winrate seems very high at 2.5BB-3BB/100 for an SSS player, it wouldn't surprise me that you are running good at those limits as dont even the very best SSS players only make 1-2BB/100?

      But of course 3k hands are nothing, all-in EV means not alot even over a big sample.
      ~50k hands at nl100-nl1k with an avg bb/100 of ~6,50. so its not a huge sample but i have been quite consistent.

      i know at least 3 sss players who manage at least 5bb/100.

      me ishindar and tac3znarf. tac3znarf even managed 6.20 or something like that on NL200 in oktober. pretty sick! he has to be the best SSS'er i know except from xarry.

      i think ishindar explains it nicely here. allthough i am not quite as loose as them:

      Originally posted by Ishindar
      there seems to be two types of advanced SSS players, the rakeback whores and the Lag style. the rakebackwhore will have a bb/100 of > 2 and playes tons of tables. The lag type plays few tables with great percision in chosing his spots and can make many tricky plays with his short stack and can have a much bigger win rate than the rakebackwhore but of course much less hands played.
      below is a graph of my winnings incl. rake from nl50-nl1k. some hands and some winnings are missing but it still shows a tendency.



      anyway i do feel my BR is rdy for nl600 but i think its just too much variance like i win 3 stacks at nl200 and loose 1 at nl600 and then im back where i started. well i dont know. maybe should just try again and if i am still not making profits at nl600 in 1 month then stop again. it would just be frustrating burning money on nl600 when i could have been winning on nl200 and 400 instead. it probably sounds stupid to you but its really a dilemma for me.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      anyway i dont want this to turn into a discussion about how profitable sss can or cannot be or how it should or should not be play.

      i just wanted your advice and from what i can gather i am just a downswing waiting to happen so i think that i will stay put for a while yet ^^

      thanks!
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Why dont you spread your BR around several sites and play NL600 on multiple sites at the same time? More sites = More tables right?
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      Why dont you spread your BR around several sites and play NL600 on multiple sites at the same time? More sites = More tables right?
      thats actually a great idea. i never thought of that.
      or maybe just start out with nl400 only and then after a while nl600
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      So, what's your main goal here? I'd say making most money, meaning play the most profitable tables. I would advise you to play all limits NL200 to NL600(there aren't many NL600 tables anyway) and make notes on the opponents(there aren't too many NL400+ players, so noting down all of them is possible) and when you see some huge fish playing at NL600 join the table or leave it when you see you're left facing SSSers and tough TAGs only.

      However, if you want to improve your skill, open smaller amount of tables of highest limit your BR allows and try to outplay not just fish, but good players as well, but don't expect this to be too profitable imo.

      ...hope it helps.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      Originally posted by burek2000
      So, what's your main goal here? I'd say making most money, meaning play the most profitable tables. I would advise you to play all limits NL200 to NL600(there aren't many NL600 tables anyway) and make notes on the opponents(there aren't too many NL400+ players, so noting down all of them is possible) and when you see some huge fish playing at NL600 join the table or leave it when you see you're left facing SSSers and tough TAGs only.

      However, if you want to improve your skill, open smaller amount of tables of highest limit your BR allows and try to outplay not just fish, but good players as well, but don't expect this to be too profitable imo.

      ...hope it helps.
      thanks burek!

      it helped a lot and i actually think thats just what i will do.

      so i will play nl200 and nl400 and then when i see a crazy avg. pot or players/pot or a known fish i will join nl600 tables as well.

      i dont think i will be trying to play at the highest limit my BR allows. imo nl2k is way out of my league and i would rather spend money on a coach than loose them on nl2k.
    • whateverdude
      whateverdude
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 232
      Dude, beating NL400 you should be much more aware than me how 3k is absolutely and utterly NOTHING as sample size at SSS.

      Since you are beating NL200/400 so well, there is no reason for you to not be confident at NL600.
      And at those levels I don't think the 30BI for NL2k u got can really be called BRM, cause variance is huge, and the 30BI BRM advocated by basic articles is obsolete anywhere NL50+

      Thus, if I were in your shoes, I'd use 100BI BRM and always always open all the tables in the highest limit my BR allows me to play at.

      3k is nowhere, not by a long shot, any kind of sample size that should affect your confidence at NL600 when you are beating NL400 so well. REALLY
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      Originally posted by whateverdude
      Dude, beating NL400 you should be much more aware than me how 3k is absolutely and utterly NOTHING as sample size at SSS.

      Since you are beating NL200/400 so well, there is no reason for you to not be confident at NL600.
      And at those levels I don't think the 30BI for NL2k u got can really be called BRM, cause variance is huge, and the 30BI BRM advocated by basic articles is obsolete anywhere NL50+

      Thus, if I were in your shoes, I'd use 100BI BRM and always always open all the tables in the highest limit my BR allows me to play at.

      3k is nowhere, not by a long shot, any kind of sample size that should affect your confidence at NL600 when you are beating NL400 so well. REALLY
      of course but i have also often felt outplayed there. but probably i am just fooling myself like one often does when trying a new limit.
      cause like i say many of the people are the same as on nl400 so it doesnt make sense that it should be so different.
      i just feel that i cant maintain the same non showdown winnings as on nl400 and nl200.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      you say you're running above EV at NL600, and that you're breakeven, meaning that your EV at NL600 is negative, meaning you can expect to lose in the longrun at NL600, i.e. you're a losing player and have no edge. you shouldn't play if you have no edge.
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      you say you're running above EV at NL600, and that you're breakeven, meaning that your EV at NL600 is negative, meaning you can expect to lose in the longrun at NL600, i.e. you're a losing player and have no edge. you shouldn't play if you have no edge.
      Wtf?

      All-in EV is only a small part of how well you're running. He could easily be getting his money in perfectly against his opponents range and run 10 BI above EV after 3k hands and still lose.

      Imo play NL600 as soon as you're comfortable because there's no reason that your 5-6bb/100 edge will be seriously diminished.
    • mrjorisa
      mrjorisa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2008 Posts: 200
      i play 3k hands in 1 day... still no reason why you shouldnt take a shot
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