[NL2-NL10] NL25... Proper Laydown?

    • THeGaME23
      THeGaME23
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2009 Posts: 398
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $5.85
      Hero:
      $5.78
      UTG2:
      $39.36
      MP2:
      $13.12

      0.1/0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.69 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with T:club: , 8:spade:
      UTG2 calls $0.25, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 3 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero checks.

      Flop: ($1.00) 6:club: , 5:spade: , T:diamond: (4 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks, UTG2 checks, MP2 checks.

      Turn: ($1.00) 8:diamond: (4 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, UTG2 calls $0.60, MP2 raises to $2.00, 2 folds, UTG2 calls $1.40.

      River: ($5.60) 4:heart: (2 players)
      UTG2 checks, MP2 bets $3.75, UTG2 folds, MP2 gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $5.60



      I hit 2 pair, but I didn't like the circumstances (straight possible) and I thought it was very likely that MP2 either hit a set or a straight. But i'm still not sure if this is too tight, is it a proper laydown?
  • 8 replies
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      with top pair i would fire one on the flop for sure 3/4 pot size. u should as a rule in a multi way pot fire one almost 100% of the time imho and most definitely on this flop.
      a few will fold and at least your chances of being outdrawn are reduced a lot.
      the villans here are really bad, I think your 2 pair had a good chance of standing up if u fired on the flop.

      it might be a good lay down but dont give multi villans free cards to ruin your part like this, make them pay admission :)
    • THeGaME23
      THeGaME23
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2009 Posts: 398
      Originally posted by Ishindar
      with top pair i would fire one on the flop for sure 3/4 pot size. u should as a rule in a multi way pot fire one almost 100% of the time imho and most definitely on this flop.
      a few will fold and at least your chances of being outdrawn are reduced a lot.
      the villans here are really bad, I think your 2 pair had a good chance of standing up if u fired on the flop.

      it might be a good lay down but dont give multi villans free cards to ruin your part like this, make them pay admission :)
      The reason I don't like fire'ing on the flop especially with 2 or more opponents is that they could easily have A10-J10 and I would be dominated. So if I bet and get called I don't know where I stand still, and I wouldn't feel safe fire'ing a second bullet unless i hit 2 pair or trips, and even then I could be beat by a straight or a set. And there are 2 people behind me if I bet the flop and I get raised I have to fold.

      Can you explain why you think I should bet the flop more in depth? Because to me I really do not agree. (Not saying I know more than you most likely opposite lol, just my opinion.)
    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      i will bet the flop here.

      you have top pair and backdoor draws to a straight so the hand should be ahead against the limpers. You will most likely get rid of at least 2 of them. You gain the initiative as well and makes the future streets much easier to play.

      Re-evaluate the flop then if you get called.

      In this case, the turn is perfect for us if we bet the flop, i will go broke then.
    • noelga
      noelga
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 7,058
      Hello everybody, I'm from the italian community. :)

      Onsestly I think i should check the flop against 4 opponents with TPNK and a backdoor SD but i think that we can play bet/broke with our top two pairs at the turn.

      We get value from SD, FD and some 8x (maybe a 86 too).
      Just a 97 complete a straight and 88 complete a set we should be scared.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      I just check Flop since you would mostly like to double barrel with the uncertainty that someone will stick around.

      As played, I bet Potsized Turn and shove on a reraise.

      97o and 74o only has a straight now and I don't think 74o is present in one of their ranges. 97o is but since he hits his gutshot , I do not Bet/Fold then.

      - Gerv
    • Ishindar
      Ishindar
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2008 Posts: 259
      Originally posted by THeGaME23
      Originally posted by Ishindar
      with top pair i would fire one on the flop for sure 3/4 pot size. u should as a rule in a multi way pot fire one almost 100% of the time imho and most definitely on this flop.
      a few will fold and at least your chances of being outdrawn are reduced a lot.
      the villans here are really bad, I think your 2 pair had a good chance of standing up if u fired on the flop.

      it might be a good lay down but dont give multi villans free cards to ruin your part like this, make them pay admission :)
      The reason I don't like fire'ing on the flop especially with 2 or more opponents is that they could easily have A10-J10 and I would be dominated. So if I bet and get called I don't know where I stand still, and I wouldn't feel safe fire'ing a second bullet unless i hit 2 pair or trips, and even then I could be beat by a straight or a set. And there are 2 people behind me if I bet the flop and I get raised I have to fold.

      Can you explain why you think I should bet the flop more in depth? Because to me I really do not agree. (Not saying I know more than you most likely opposite lol, just my opinion.)
      my bet the flop line is heavily biased by the donkey villan type u are facing.
      i think u should bet the flop because there is only a 24% max chance one of the villans holds a 10. thats a 76% chance that u have top pair alone :) betting the flop has the advantage of seeing where u are at, early in the hand before u are pot comitted so u can fold easy to a reraise.
      it encourages all worse hands than yours to fold. protects your top pair and makes drawing -ev for the villans.
      checking on the other hand allows 3 villans to draw to a better hand than yours for free potentially.
      if u fear a better hand than yours will just call the flop u can check the turn and re evaluate based on his stats. if hes usually passive and suddenly agressive u fold, if hes passive he will check behind, allowing u to get to the river cheaply at least... i just think this is better balanced play and maybe just suits my agressive style and stat orientated decisions
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      I do check this flop without even wondering, even if Ishindar reflexion looks fair. Bet the flop is surely not a mistake, but my opinion is that playing turn and river OOP with just TPNK will make us doing mistakes or being outplayed too often. That's why I check, I just think this isn't a safe spot to invest money.

      At the turn you really have to bet. I think nevertheless that your betsizing is weak. As the pot is small, I prefer bet 0.75 (3/4pot).

      The small 3bet of MP2 after the UTG cold call is an obvious sign of strengh. You have just one alternative: push or fold. To make your push ev+ you need between 40% equity and 28% i(f utg2 calls). To make things easier I would say 36% equity so (utg2 will fold very often imho).

      I would have fold too, happy to have made a nice laydown. Here mp2 has a set (rarely the straight because of his range of limp pf) too much often to make this call ev+. I don't see him bluff here, and his line only represent a set to me. If he's not bluffin you're beaten, so, does he bluff or overplay a loosing hand here more than 40% of the time ?
    • THeGaME23
      THeGaME23
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2009 Posts: 398
      Originally posted by Gerv
      I just check Flop since you would mostly like to double barrel with the uncertainty that someone will stick around.

      As played, I bet Potsized Turn and shove on a reraise.

      97o and 74o only has a straight now and I don't think 74o is present in one of their ranges. 97o is but since he hits his gutshot , I do not Bet/Fold then.

      - Gerv
      Thanks Gerv and thanks a lot everyone! I think next time I will still check but bet bigger on the turn and then push if I get re raised. He could have a set but he could also be slow playing aces or kings, or hit a worse 2 pair. I think more than 40% of the time im ahead here.

      Thanks for all the feedback.

      EDIT: Oh and Gerv I just wanted to say that I really liked your NL25 SSS video (there are only a few) Are you planning on doing any more soon? That would be great :) .